Split Requests

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:59:02 GMT

However, I have never actually heard an announcement of a split request in a meet. Ever. And I see split requests appear in the event rankings from meets I've competed in. Nor have I actually heard anyone tell their neighbors that they are sandbagging or getting a split request. This did happen at LCM nationals. KPN was in the fastest womens heat of the 1500 free. Her intention was to get a 400 or 800 split (can't remember which). She let the people in the lanes around her know what she was doing and it was announced by the starter prior to the swim.

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:30:51 GMT

If you are polite and notify everyone in the field what your goal is, I am not as annoyed. There should be an annoucement on the PA before the event begins. This announcement should include what the swimmers is going for and the ramifications of failure and success. Failing to accomplish the goal should be a bevy of brews for those in the heat. Accomplishing stated goal should be a bevy of brews for those in the heat. The swimmer should also finish the event close to his/her seed time.

RE: Split Requests

Muppet — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:53:31 GMT

However, I have never actually heard an announcement of a split request in a meet. Ever... I think we can all go on about times when we heard someone announce it, or when we did it ourselves... Fort, since most of the (Masters) meets you attend are multi-day meets that usually separate out distance events to a separate day (or session), as a wimpy sprinter :cane:, you're just never around to hear it.

RE: Split Requests

BillS — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:51:01 GMT

Not an issue. Remember that swimmers trying to make cuts (particularly in USS and college) will do time trials after meets or even meets composed entirely of time trials. In college, on three separate occasions, I swam 200 fly time trials alone to make cuts. Another time I did a 1000 free time trial alone, and was so bored that I missed the cut I was trying to make. Edit: Now that I think about it, I also did several other time trial swims just to see how fast I could go in some of my "off" events. At least in my mind, there's a difference between looking for a cut and setting a world record. Wasn't there some controversy a while back about a 50 free record being set in a trial? Maybe Hall, Jr was involved, I can't recall right now? Something about an empty lane between 2 very fast guys?

RE: Split Requests

chowmi — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:40:11 GMT

If I do the 2009 check off challenge, can I just swim the 1650 IM's 200's of stroke and get my splits to count?

RE: Split Requests

The Fortress — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:17:26 GMT

Paul, you are among the honorable. I like your example. Paul is God in this very limited way. ;) However, I have never actually heard an announcement of a split request in a meet. Ever. And I see split requests appear in the event rankings from meets I've competed in. Nor have I actually heard anyone tell their neighbors that they are sandbagging or getting a split request. Although I believe that Muppet would do that, as he's a straight up cool dude.

RE: Split Requests

elise526 — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:02:32 GMT

I make it a practice to always tell the starter and the swimmers in my heet if I'm going for a split time and it has always been annunced to the field prior to stepping onto the blocks. Peg...don't I owe you a beer for your beating my time? Paul, you are among the honorable. I like your example.

RE: Split Requests

That Guy — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:00:36 GMT

What about the clear water issue in all of this? Is it fair to the guy or gal who fought his or her way to the front of a pack of 8 churning, thrashing sprinters to a record 50 time while split guy or gal has nice un-churned, un-thrashed water to play with? Isn't sandbagging to get clear water frowned upon? Why then is it sanctioned, or at least ignored, with recognized splits? Not an issue. Remember that swimmers trying to make cuts (particularly in USS and college) will do time trials after meets or even meets composed entirely of time trials. In college, on three separate occasions, I swam 200 fly time trials alone to make cuts. Another time I did a 1000 free time trial alone, and was so bored that I missed the cut I was trying to make. Edit: Now that I think about it, I also did several other time trial swims just to see how fast I could go in some of my "off" events.

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:18:34 GMT

Awesome:bliss:If I do the 2009 check off challenge, can I just swim the 1650 IM's 200's of stroke and get my splits to count?

RE: Split Requests

psyncw — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:48:02 GMT

I have on occasion heard an official announce that someone is going for a split rather than the full swim, but not very often. I think alot of the split requests come from lead off's on relays or the first 50 of a 100 swim, or the first 100 of a 200 swim. It doesn't seem necessary to tell other relays you are going for a relay split time. Nor would I find it necessary to tell others in my heat that I had asked for my first 50 of a 100 to count unless i planned on not going for the 100 time as well. So don't assume that those who requested split requests you see in the meet results were sandbagging or disrupting the competition in any way.

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:31:03 GMT

I say "Two Suits, Two Asteriks".

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:23:37 GMT

What's interesting is that USA Swimming and USMS rules differ on initial distances for relays. In USA Swimming, as long as the lead-off swimmer completes his/her leg legally without being disqualified, the time counts for an initial distance split. It's OK if the relay is DQed due to another swimmer infraction. In USMS, it is required that the entire relay complete the event without being disqualified. If USMS didn't have that rule, then I absolutely guarantee that there would be a bunch of fake relays entered at big meets like nationals. Enter a relay, but only show up with one swimmer going for an initial split. When no one dives in for legs 2-4, the relay is DQ'd, but the split time stands. This is a good USMS rule.

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:27:40 GMT

Enter a relay, but only show up with one swimmer going for an initial split. When no one dives in for legs 2-4, the relay is DQ'd, but the split time stands. This is a good USMS rule. Something almost similar happened to me. In Ottawa there's only one LCM meet per year, in February, and I always (last six years since I restarted swimming anyway) enter the 50 free. I swim unattached I (in 25m pools). Therefore the one annual LCM meet I do is the only time I can get "timed". From year to next year it's difficult to tell if I swim all out will be faster or if I swim long. Therefore it was manna from Heaven for me to discover the rule that allows relay teams in meets where the swimmers do not belong to the same club and their entry and time would be for "exhibition" purposes only and no records would count. So this year 2008, I suggested this event to the organizers. They thought it was a good idea and scheduled it. I swam my own 50free and then a few events later, it's time for the "exhibition" relay. I show up at the start and number three does not; numbers 2 and 4 are ready at the other end. The starter calls the race and, unbeknownst to me, the official at the other end suggested to swimmer 2 to do a 100 so that swimmer 4 would have a chance to swim. a) our relay was DQ'ed, naturally, and b) in trying to find number 3, I forgot to ask the timers to PLEASE, time MY split, jut for my info, PLEASE.

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:05:59 GMT

Except that the event is 'freestyle' so it would not count for anything other than freestlye no matter what stroke you swam. Someone swimming a record 400 IM in a 400 Free event will not get official credit as the event was a Freestyle event. The only way to get a 50 Fly split recognized is for it to be swam during a Fly only event (or during the Fly leg of an IM). I thought 'freestyle' meant exactly that. In other words you are free to do any style you want. Front crawl is the fastest so everyone uses it, but they could equally choose to use any of the other three strokes should they want to. Am I wrong?:confused:

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:58:52 GMT

I am curious to know if USATF (track and field) allows this type of thing. Is somebody allowed to use a 400 or 800 split on the 1500? Yes. HOWEVER, in order for it to be accepted, it would have to have all the official timing protocalls in place at the intermediate marks. So, for example, you would need to have FAT (fully automatic timing) and not manual timing, etc. It would also be made quite clear to all competitors what was happening before the race. That said, it is rare to do this in the running events. There have been instances where people have used, say, a mile run to get a 1500 meter record, but fewer cases where it is done for other distances for record purposes. In racewalking it is VERY common to use a longer race to go for a fast time at a shorter distance, usually for purposes of qualifying for another competition, like the Olympic Trials. It is also common in racewalking to extend a race distance to allow someone to qualify for something. This is mostly due to a scarcity of races with the correct level of judging and/or competitors. However, racewalk timing is generally accepted as being like road racing timing, so you don't need the fancy automatic timing unless it's a world record attempt. Edited: I forgot to add that the running/walking race management can, at their discretion, decline to do this. -LBJ

RE: Split Requests

The Fortress — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:23:14 GMT

According to 105.3.7, yes, someone can conceivably get a split from all those races (and relays) to count towards a WR as long as they abide by the procedures set forth in that section of the rules. Well, I think this rule sucks then, violates the spirit of fair play, and should be re-written to prohibit such conduct. Let's be pro-swimmer in the interpretation of rules, but this seems extreme and more toward the "playing" and cheating end of things. What will we have next? People swimming in 4-5 B70s even though the rule says "swimsuit"?

RE: Split Requests

Muppet — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:18:54 GMT

According to 105.3.7, yes, someone can conceivably get a split from all those races (and relays) to count towards a WR as long as they abide by the procedures set forth in that section of the rules. In reality, it wouldn't quite happen the way you describe it. The swimmer will get all their backup timers for all their races and fill out their times on that lane's timer card. But at the end of the meet, they get to come up to the meet director and say "hey, dude meet director, i got 50 splits in all my free events, but can you please submit the one from my ?" Unless the meet director is an ahole (or the swimmer is), it'll get submitted. FYI - USMS Rulebook area of the USMS site

RE: Split Requests

The Fortress — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:53:21 GMT

I don't think it unfair,rather it is a chance to mitigate the unfairness that the meet schedule sometimes causes.I do think it is only fair to enter the time you think you will actually do and to tell the rest of the heat of your intentions.If a freestyler was to enter all the events to get a 50 record I think they would be a very tired swimmer by the end of the meet(unless they were a real jerk and stopped after every failed attempt and got out after 50,they'd be DQd,but since they didn't get there time,so what.) Ah, yes, that pesky order of events business that I am so reknowned for now ... In fact, I was just looking at the meet entry form for Auburn and thinking the 200 back might have me written all over it ... Is a time trial always loaded in one's favor, Pakman? Surely it must depend on the swimmer. I have heard complaints about lack of "optimal competitive racing conditons" or lack of "crowd energy ... And in a longer time trial or split request, you are surely racing only yourself. If Osterber and others are right, it's better to race others.

RE: Split Requests

knelson — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:36:00 GMT

a person could have WRs or #1 rankings or whatever in an event that they never actually swam that year. See, that's a sprinter's mentality. To me, if I swim a 1650 I maintain that I am swimming a 50 and a 100, and a 200, etc. By swimming the event called "50 freestyle" you guys are just neglecting an opportunity to swim multiple events all in one fell swoop!

RE: Split Requests

Former Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:15:50 GMT

Even though claims have been made that the suits don't float, they are made out of some sort of closed cell material that is not of an entirely different species than neoprene. Having two of them on has to be somewhere along the calculus curve that leads incrementally in the direction of a true wetsuit. You are perpetuating a misunderstanding of neoprene. Neoprene is just a form of synthetic rubber. Sometimes it is formed into a closed cell foam that creates insulation (and flotation). Hence use as wetsuits and coozies. Neoprene is used as a coating for inflatable boats to make the fabric air tight. I think the Yamamoto (?) material used in the B70 is not a closed cell foam. I think it is simply a thin rubber-like coating over the spandex. The rubber-like material may have less friction in water than either spandex or human skin. And I think it traps tiny air bubbles in the spandex, causing a small but perceptible amount of flotation.

RE: Split Requests

Allen Stark — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:08 GMT

RE: Split Requests

osterber — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:31:57 GMT

The rules clearly state that the swimmer (or swimmers if a relay) must finish the entire prescribed race - 105.3.7 - D. If Paul got out, or had a Rutgers-esque situation (God forbid), then while we all know what he did in his split, he did not finish the race and is therefore DQ'd and his WR Split effort goes down the toilet. This precice rule is keeping people from swimming 200 fly's for 50 times and then getting out of the water. What's interesting is that USA Swimming and USMS rules differ on initial distances for relays. In USA Swimming, as long as the lead-off swimmer completes his/her leg legally without being disqualified, the time counts for an initial distance split. It's OK if the relay is DQed due to another swimmer infraction. In USMS, it is required that the entire relay complete the event without being disqualified. -Rick

RE: Split Requests

jim thornton — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:29:45 GMT

Or, with the right current, dead man float your way to the natural and arguably deserved conclusion...

RE: Split Requests

The Fortress — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:24:29 GMT

If no, I would advise against trying to set a world record in the 50 fly during the first 50 of a 200 fly. Theoretically though, Jim, according to Wolf-Girl, you could just put your arms in a streamline position and kick the whole rest of the way.

RE: Split Requests

osterber — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:23:56 GMT

I thought 'freestyle' meant exactly that. In other words you are free to do any style you want. Front crawl is the fastest so everyone uses it, but they could equally choose to use any of the other three strokes should they want to. Am I wrong?:confused: Right. You can do any stroke you want. But it only counts as freestyle. If you do a 400 IM during a 400 freestyle... the officials are only officiating against freestyle rules. They're not watching your 2-hand touch. They're not watching your over-rotation on backstroke turns, etc. They're just officiating freestyle rules. (Note that in many meets, the officiating setup will actually change for freestyle events. Often, for example, during a 400 freestyle, you'd only have one official at each end, making sure each lane touches the wall. For a 400 IM, you'd need at least 2, and preferably at least 4, officials at each end of an 8-lane pool to properly officiate the strokes.) -Rick