Ok, one more freestyle arm question

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:53:24 GMT

The "I" stroke in my eyes puts everything that Doc Councillman talked about in the "S" stroke into play. The "S" motion he talked about because of shoudler rotation is still done. But it now appears to be an straight line when under water. I have had a bout of montezuma's revenge, when I am feeling a little better I will get in the water and make some videos and show you what I mean. Wide elbows I do not mind but wide hands to me are a no no. Yet it appears a couple of swimmers also use wide hands. Mazzy I do understand what you are saying. The go swim video is one I have sent to many but if you look closely she has more of an old school "S" stroke. when she wears the paddles it is more like an "I" stroke. What is this old guy doing hands in elbows out oregonmasters.ning.com/.../show

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:21:21 GMT

Here is another of Thorpe www.youtube.com/watch and another www.youtube.com/watch BTW, www.youtube.com/watch this it's even better, forget the very last part. but what is the point ? The thorpe's hands don't draw a S-shaped motion at all from every point of view, his elbow isn't as high and as out as the Hackett's ones but it's essentially the same stroke, hands enter at shoulders level, front quadrant type, high elbow, rounded off at the hip, look like a single peak velocity type.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:32:04 GMT

Here is another of Thorpe www.youtube.com/watch and another www.youtube.com/watch I can see how these videos can be seen as a "wide" stroke, but compared to a lot of swimmers that I have seen it is still a "tight" stroke; notice how his elbow slightly comes out but he brings it right back in (the video for the front view).

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:02:02 GMT

I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. Maybe I need new glasses. geochuck, my point is simple, Thorpe is a great master of I-stroke, and s-shape stroke and I-stroke are different, period. I've a great deal of respect for you, I simply don't see reason because you need new glass :). There're different "version" of I-stroke, every world-class swimmer perfect his particular version, nothing new there, someone have a wider pull that the others. You talk about that his stroke is pretty close to his body... well, yes! but I've no read that somebody is talking about his great wide pull... so I've asked you what is your point. BTW Thopre roll a lot on his side, so a close path is better. if you look at some sprinters that roll less, you'll see a wider pull, I think that the best examples is K.L. Joyce. look at this video... www.youtube.com/watch her upper arm is nealy parallel to the deck/floor

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:17:44 GMT

Mazzy I have no idea what your point is. I do do not see an "S" stroke when Thorpe swims. To me it is a straiight in line stroke. Side shots are not even worth looking at. The hands follow a straight line.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:37:57 GMT

By the way thanks for the update Tomtopo very good stuff. Here is a good video of Thorpe www.youtube.com/watch I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. www.youtube.com/watch Maybe I need new glasses. I can see how these videos can be seen as a "wide" stroke, but compared to a lot of swimmers that I have seen it is still a "tight" stroke; notice how his elbow slightly comes out but he brings it right back in (the video for the front view).

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:16:32 GMT

The following videos and information may help you. Good luck! The following under water videos are fun to watch and will help everyone understand that every swimmer to greater and much lesser degrees have an EVF. EVF is a catch and all swimmers should want to improve it. Don’t let some tell you that EVF is front quadrant swimming because EVF starts in the first quadrant and continues at the beginning of the second quadrant. Each competitive stroke can be separated into four different segments or quadrants. The front quadrant is where the catch (EVF) “sets-up” the stroke into an effective propulsive position; the second quadrant is where power from a properly set up hand and forearm position occurs; the third quadrant where the release from the power phase and then recovery is initiated; and the fourth quadrant is where the recovery makes the transition to the entry. The all important EVF position or catch is located in the first quadrant and beginning of the second quadrant of each stroke. Tell me what you think of the following videos. Simply copy and paste the URL’s into your browser and the information should come up. Good Luck Coach T. Elbows High By Robert Boder / German translation: Felix Gmünder http://www.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/ This video will say error – simply delete the error page and it should come up. Faster Swimming With an Early Vertical Forearm Position in All Strokes www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html swimming.about.com/.../swimtec...opcatchevf.htm In Search of the Dreaded Dropped Elbow by Coach Emmett Hines www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html www.swim.ee/.../index_example.html www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch Grant Hackett www.youtube.com/watch Ziegler Holds off Laure Manaudou www.youtube.com/watch A picture frame by frame comparison of Thorpe and Hackett www.svl.ch/.../ EVF Powerpoint website www.authorstream.com/presenta...-narration-Imp ortant-anEarly-Vertical-Forearm-Look-Results-Pictures-Search-Dreaded-Dro-w-Entertainment-p pt-powerpoint/ TYPE IN THE LETTERS EVF AFTER IT COMES UP swimming.about.com/.../swimtec...opcatchevf.htm www.youtube.com/profile www.swimmingcoach.org/.../EVF...olskiSMALL.pdf

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:03:10 GMT

Fistgloves work great for teaching you how to anchor your arm in the water and then use your back muscles to pulls yourself forward. Some people try them once and hate the sensation so much they never use them again, but stick with them and they will seriously improve your efficiency.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:12:26 GMT

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 09:17:09 GMT

The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion... Well geochuck, IMO you forget the point of view of the swimmers to really differentiate the two stroke, if you call I-stroke the stroke where you get into EVF and your insweep/upsweep is done with the hand out on your side and it don't cross under your body, like showed by Hackett/Thorpe. From the deck with the rotation side-to-side whatever you do, you'll see a 3D S-shape like movement, but if you consider the classic s-shape stroke and the point of view of the swimmers, the swimmers draw a intentional S-shape motion with his hands, in I-Stroke the swimmers draw a nearly perfect I after he get into EVF. Moreover they are based from very different principe, from lift/drag theory the s-shape, from 3rd law of Newton the I-stroke. You can win gold medals with both of them but they're different IMHO.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 16:16:20 GMT

I didn't realize there was a specific I-type of stroke. I just assumed that was a variant of the s-stroke that he does, considering he does change directions with his hand when he gets to his lower torso, since he is still swimming under his body as opposed to out to the side. Watch videos of him swimming front the front, and it's fairly easy to see this. If you want to call this the I-stroke (never heard of that), then that would be good for someone who wants to compete but wants to save some strain on his shoulders.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:53:08 GMT

I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you. His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this www.authorstream.com/.../ On the contrary, Geo, this is exactly what I was talking about. I haven't seen these slides before, but they are truly helpful to explaining it to age-groupers who are having a hard time understanding the concept of EVF! So, thank you for that!

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:16:43 GMT

Sorry for the confusion George, but I wasn't refering to getting shoulder problems from EVF, but rather from stroking out to the side vs. the s-stroke. I haven't experienced shoulder problems either way, but was reporting what my coaches have told me. I am very good at not saying what I mean. What I mean by forcing EVF immediately is trying to hook your shoulders up so that your arm enters almost vertically. I don't know why anyone would swim that way, but I've seen people do it. Hey, Michael, I was referring to the moment I start my recovery. If I am going fast, I tend to end the push sooner, isn't that what most people do? I think I have already asked this question here before. Assuming the last part of the stroke isn't accelerating as much, would it be more efficient to start a new cycle as your hands cross the belly button? I'm not the expert, but I think swimming in an almost-catch-up manner is the most efficient. Someone mentioned Ian Thorpe, and that's exactly how he swims. When I swim front crawl, my recovering hand enters the water about the time that my other arm is under my shoulder, even when I'm going fast. When I do it right, I feel like I'm skipping over the water. It's a weird feeling.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 10:59:07 GMT

I would suggest the s-stroke, as it is a bit easier on the shoulders. The classic I-stroke, by aussie like thorpe, is very shoulders friendly, done with good technique is easy on the shoulder better that s-shape type. You pull with the lats nearly all the time, there's no change of directions, the upper arm move in an arc-type trajectory that it's the more natural for the shoulders. The key is the patience at the start to position the arm before to start the pull. If you force the EVF too early for you you're looking for trouble for sure. Regular exercise for RC is a must for whatever style of pull. The classic I-stroke require a 90 degrees angle between the lower and the upper arm. There're a lot of different variants of I-stroke, the more your hands go deep in the water( elbow deeper, 90+ degrees) more strain you put in your shoulder and less use of lats.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 09:21:46 GMT

I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you. His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this www.authorstream.com/.../ Fanstone I would still finish on my thigh no matter swimming sprints or distance, just a little lower on the thigh when swimming distance. Too many people watching videos and forgetting the deflection of light rays underwater (refraction). The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion...

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:11:37 GMT

Hey, Michael, I was referring to the moment I start my recovery. If I am going fast, I tend to end the push sooner, isn't that what most people do? I think I have already asked this question here before. Assuming the last part of the stroke isn't accelerating as much, would it be more efficient to start a new cycle as your hands cross the belly button?

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:02:49 GMT

I would refer back to Ande's tip: train how you race, or something like that. If you train using the s-stroke, you are going to race with the s-stroke. The straight pull doesn't go to the belly, it goes all the way past the hips. The length of the stroke is the same, there is just no change in direction of the arm. If you don't try to force the EVF immediately, your shoulders should be okay as long as you don't push yourself too hard to fast. I think it really depends on your goals. If your goal is to swim for fun and to get better with the occasional meet, I would suggest the s-stroke, as it is a bit easier on the shoulders. If you want to compete regularly and look to really get some great times, possibly break some records or post some top times, I would suggest the straight pull. Either way, you should make sure to stretch regularly.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 11:13:16 GMT

Could it be possible to swim with S shaped, going with hands all the way to thighs while training and then when swimming 50 or maybe 100 free in competition to go with straight pull till belly? Train with care not to damage shoulder, doing lots of rotation and exaggerating the movements. Then, come race day, just swim the the fastest possible, which probably means losing some style...I guess when swimming longer distances such as 400 and 8000 and open water one must keep the style and technique and stretch and do the complete S so as to last longer at a medium pace.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

slowfish — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:47:27 GMT

hey thanks typhoons and mj, i'll play around with these drills to see if something clicks. i really need to have someone stay on my butt about correct technique. but most of the masters coaches just give a workout without much in the way of corrections.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Stevepowell — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 02:06:51 GMT

My free is(was) probably flat style having learned in the 60's. Thanks to the above post(s) the light is beginning to dawn. Last night I tried letting my arm stretch fwd and sink down once it's in the water. This kinda naturally caused my shoulder to dip or roll as it sank. Once I wanted to grab the water I bent my wrist a little along with the elbow to get the hand perpendicular to travel. This caused a feeling like climbing over my arm/hand. Also I found that I'm not strong enough to keep my forearm totally vertical during the big part of the pull when my arm is straight down and a little past. I am definitely out of shape and this style is new to me. Hopefully the above rambling makes some sense and any advice/criticism is welcome and thanked in advance.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:20:02 GMT

getting your forearm vertical or at least making the attempt to get the forearm vertical and not sweeping under your body. I think LindsayB said it is more of a early diagonal. From watching some tapes of phelps and others, it appears to be a bit more diagonal first, then vertical as everything takes it's place in the stroke.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 17:03:18 GMT

How would you define "semi-correct" or "correct" pull tech? getting your forearm vertical or at least making the attempt to get the forearm vertical and not sweeping under your body.

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:52:56 GMT

This is definitely the key to freestyle; the elongated stroke with max effort and efficiency during the pull phase (as long as the pull technique is sem-correct)! How would you define "semi-correct" or "correct" pull tech?

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:16:39 GMT

working on really long, smooth strokes, using a powerful pull. This is definitely the key to freestyle; the elongated stroke with max effort and efficiency during the pull phase (as long as the pull technique is semi-correct)!

RE: Ok, one more freestyle arm question

Former Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:50:37 GMT

I've been trying to revamp my freestyle after seeing a videotape of myself :eeew: I've been watching the DVD of Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen. There were a couple of things that hit home that I was doing wrong and i think i'm correctly. Perfect example is that i was crossing the center line. I've been faithfully doing the heads up freestyle drill where you finish swimming normally. When i first started doing this, the wider arms felt strange, now they don't. It's been fun to have something just click and feel right. But i'm struggling with the initial pull. I know i'm loosing power and think it is because i'm dropping my shoulder. Anyone have drills to force me to get this part correct so that eventually, it will feel normal? There is a quick catch drill that you can do to help with this phase of the pull. Essentially what you would do is elongate the time that you enter in the water, fully extend on your axis and as soon as you are fully extended get your forearm vertical as quickly as possible (you can measure this by saying the word "quick"). There might be a couple of swimmers that don't like this drill depending on durability of your shoulders, etc... Overall, though, in my opinion you need to find a coach that will consistently work with you if you are looking for the technique aspect of the strokes...again, just my opinion. All the best!