Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:32:32 GMT

Not sure what you mean by that but I know that Montgomery County in Maryland has 4 divisions for HS swimming and holds duel meets. If guns or swords are involved, that's probably why Maryland doesn't want swimming as a HS sport. :bolt:

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:19:29 GMT

I think this is indicative of the situation at many programs, and I see this in the DC/Metro area annually. There are several great national USA-S programs in the area cultivating world-class swimmers (Rockville-Montgomery, FISH, Curl), and every year, I see the top kids go away for school rather than stay home and head to the University of Maryland. These kids want to have a college experience, and all too often, they want to be as far away from home as they can get. And why not? In some cases, these kids may be swimming in the same Natatorium for 10 years by the time they're done with college. You can't blame them for that, but at the same time, what are these universities doing to recruit these kids? ARE these local universities recruiting these kids? What about diversity on your team - don't you want swimmers from different backgrounds coming in? To Maryland's credit, the last couple of years, they've gotten a couple of RMSC guys with some real potential - my hope is they'll be the beginning of a pipeline back to the club and that they'll start bringing their younger friends in and help build our team with local talent. Has Maryland still refused to introduce swimming to inter-high school competition?

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

pwolf66 — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:29:00 GMT

Has Maryland still refused to introduce swimming to inter-high school competition? Not sure what you mean by that but I know that Montgomery County in Maryland has 4 divisions for HS swimming and holds duel meets.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 16:29:43 GMT

I don't understand this comment at all. There are a ton of sports that are contested at the collegiate level that aren't NCAA sports: rugby, Ultimate frisbee, etc. Ultimate, at least, and probably others have governing bodies that set standards and rules, check eligibility, and so on. Plus there's the NAIA, or whatever, that governs a lot of non-NCAA schools for athletics. I'm sorry I thought that Ultimate Frisbee teams had to have both men & women on the team. Also, I guess i am still in the Olympic state of mind.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:31:26 GMT

I'm not real sure but I think the only sport that men compete in on the collegiate level that isn't controlled by the NCAA is rowing. Which oddly is one of the first sports colleges competed in here in the States. I don't understand this comment at all. There are a ton of sports that are contested at the collegiate level that aren't NCAA sports: rugby, Ultimate frisbee, etc. Ultimate, at least, and probably others have governing bodies that set standards and rules, check eligibility, and so on. Plus there's the NAIA, or whatever, that governs a lot of non-NCAA schools for athletics.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Muppet — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:49:50 GMT

Lindsay - I have no doubt the times of the international swimmers are faster. What is disturbing to me is that it appears that Auburn, our state land grant university, is unwillling to cultivate the talent we have here. ... Seems our boys find happier homes at Alabama, Tennessee, and Texas. I think this is indicative of the situation at many programs, and I see this in the DC/Metro area annually. There are several great national USA-S programs in the area cultivating world-class swimmers (Rockville-Montgomery, FISH, Curl), and every year, I see the top kids go away for school rather than stay home and head to the University of Maryland. These kids want to have a college experience, and all too often, they want to be as far away from home as they can get. And why not? In some cases, these kids may be swimming in the same Natatorium for 10 years by the time they're done with college. You can't blame them for that, but at the same time, what are these universities doing to recruit these kids? ARE these local universities recruiting these kids? What about diversity on your team - don't you want swimmers from different backgrounds coming in? To Maryland's credit, the last couple of years, they've gotten a couple of RMSC guys with some real potential - my hope is they'll be the beginning of a pipeline back to the club and that they'll start bringing their younger friends in and help build our team with local talent.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

knelson — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:33:55 GMT

Rowing is a strange one because there are quite a few very serious men's rowing teams. I'm sure the primary reason it's not added for men is Title IX compliance. Lots of schools have added women's programs in rowing for that very reason.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:51:44 GMT

I'm sorry I thought that Ultimate Frisbee teams had to have both men & women on the team. There are some local rules requiring coed teams, but most college teams are men's or women's.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:21:44 GMT

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

knelson — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:01:00 GMT

I would argue that the scholarships that go to foreign born volleyball players ensure a more harmful view to our notion of foreigners going to our schools with sports scholarships than do swimmers. Many schools get these guys to their schools Ignorance on my part, but I had no idea men's volleyball was an NCAA sport until reading this. I remember thinking it was strange that the U.S. men's team did so well in Beijing considering it isn't an NCAA sport.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:25:47 GMT

I went to a very small, hard, expensive college. I couldn't swim the entire time because I had to work. In this state the largest university doesn't have a men's swim team. In many other sports there has been a tremendous use of foreign students for decades. It has been argued that the Iranian revolution was in fact started by the huge number of Iranian young men here playing soccer for universities (I remember them on our streets in the time. Some were the best collegiate soccer players our country has ever seen) . They were able to see just how manipulative the US was in other nations' internal affairs. Okay now I've made everyone made at me again. The guy who was (might still be) in charge of running investigations of foreign students coming to the states went to the same little college I went to. I would argue that the scholarships that go to foreign born volleyball players ensure a more harmful view to our notion of foreigners going to our schools with sports scholarships than do swimmers. Many schools get these guys to their schools, if they don't win, the guy looses everything. Many of these guys coem from Brazil. Many have very weak arguments against calling themselves professional volleyball players.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:25:52 GMT

Lets use the Euro professional sports model....maximum of two foreign swimmers per team That used to be the rule in socccer for example - but no more - the German League had team last year that put 11 foreign players on the field.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:46:00 GMT

Lindsay - I have no doubt the times of the international swimmers are faster. What is disturbing to me is that it appears that Auburn, our state land grant university, is unwillling to cultivate the talent we have here. Wait a minute. Is the job of the coach to try to cultivate talent within the state, or to try to put the best team together he can to try to win? At lower levels, people should be trying to develop talent and make sure the kids have fun. But I'm pretty sure that in college, they want the team to win. If the football team at Auburn went 4-8 and the coach said, "Yeah, we didn't win, but look at all of the local talent I cultivated!" I'm pretty sure he'd still get fired. Is swimming all that different? Do you think they'd give the coach a pass on having a sucky team just because he gave lots of scholarships to Alabama kids to try to cultivate them?

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:42:07 GMT

Nope. Cielo went pro. OK - but in prior years Cielo probably had 10% of Auburn's scholarships for men's swimming/diving. BTW - not saying he didn't deserve it. We proved he was the world's best short course yards sprinter (and a fine LCM sprinter too in Beijing).

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:46:56 GMT

I got curious and thought I would check the rosters of some of the top ranked men's swimming programs. Arizona has 34 on its roster which includes 10 swimmers from Arizona and 7 international swimmers. Auburn (located in Alabama) has 25 on its roster which includes 1 swimmer from Alabama and 6 international swimmers. I have to admit that it bothers me somewhat that there are more international swimmers on Auburn's team than swimmers from Alabama. Keep in mind that Auburn is a state school and we have several outstanding USA teams in the state - Huntsville Swim Association, Birmingham Swim League, Hoover Blue Thunder, Auburn Aquatics are just a few of the good teams we have here. I sure would like to see more than one Alabama swimmer on the roster. With 9.9 scholarships - care to guess what % was allocated to the international students? If only one swimmer is from Alabama then almost the entire team has to pay out of state tuition or receive financial aid (could be scholarships). I don't know how much difference there is in tuition in-state vs. out-of-state in Alabama. I bet Cesar Cielo gets 1 scholarship. That leaves 8.9 to be divided among the remaining 24 swimmers+divers.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:06:59 GMT

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

elise526 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:54:18 GMT

If you are good enough to swim or play football for Auburn, you are good enough to swim or play for every single univesity program in the US. Plus, why in the world would anyone voluntarily stay in the state of Alabama? I'm from AL so I can say this. :rofl: Now, now geek. It's not so bad here. We've got mountains, the beach, lots of fattening barbecue, friendly people, and some great football teams.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

tjrpatt — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:17:40 GMT

I could care less anymore about foreign swimmers. But, the weird thing is that my former college coach seems to have more American swimmers on the team nowadays. I guess that some coaches like the foreign swimmers because they feel that they can control the foreigner, they won't talk back or push them in the pool(this guy on my former college team pushed the my former college coach in the pool after some argument over absolutely nothing. I think that the coach egged him on to kick him off the team).

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

elise526 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:06:50 GMT

Wait a minute. Is the job of the coach to try to cultivate talent within the state, or to try to put the best team together he can to try to win? At lower levels, people should be trying to develop talent and make sure the kids have fun. But I'm pretty sure that in college, they want the team to win. If the football team at Auburn went 4-8 and the coach said, "Yeah, we didn't win, but look at all of the local talent I cultivated!" I'm pretty sure he'd still get fired. Is swimming all that different? Do you think they'd give the coach a pass on having a sucky team just because he gave lots of scholarships to Alabama kids to try to cultivate them? Interesting to me that Auburn limits their team to 25 swimmers. They should follow the example of Arizona and have 34. Let the in-state guys walk on and take a stab at proving themselves. College swimming is not professional swimming by the way. We should hope that colleges consider the diamonds in the rough. Nobody said the entire team had to be made up of all in-state guys, but you have to admit that 1 is pretty pathetic. Rest assured that if the Auburn football team had only 5% of its players from Alabama, the Trustees would be breathing down the coach's neck, whatever the record.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

aquageek — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:48:58 GMT

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

knelson — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:33:18 GMT

Why is it that a higher percentage of those foreign swimmers are of a higher caliber than the US swimmers enabling them to get the swimming scholarships? There are about 300 million people in the U.S., but nearly 6 billion in the world. Yeah, only a small fraction of that total resides in countries with strong swimming teams, but the bottom line is you've got a much bigger talent pool to draw from when you look outside the U.S. I believe your premise that a higher percentage of foreign swimmers are of higher caliber than U.S. swimmers is flat out wrong.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

DanSad — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:28:32 GMT

These numbers may be off but hope you see the point... If there are 50,000 US men/women of college age who swim and would like to swim at a university or college. I'm assuming there are far fewer foreign swimmers of college age who swim and would like to swim at a US university or college, say 20,000. Why is it that a higher percentage of those foreign swimmers are of a higher caliber than the US swimmers enabling them to get the swimming scholarships? Maybe we should be looking at their coaching and training techniques.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

knelson — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:27:11 GMT

I bet Cesar Cielo gets 1 scholarship. That leaves 8.9 to be divided among the remaining 24 swimmers+divers. Nope. Cielo went pro.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

elise526 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:13:58 GMT

Elise, have you compared the times of the international swimmers against those of the high school graduating classes the years the international swimmers joined? I am curious as to whether there is a gap and if so how large it is. Lindsay - I have no doubt the times of the international swimmers are faster. What is disturbing to me is that it appears that Auburn, our state land grant university, is unwillling to cultivate the talent we have here. I speak from personal experience. I coached a kid until he was 15 and sent him on to a bigger, faster USA team. He stayed in touch with me a good bit after he left and kept me filled in on his training, meets, etc. After only 4 years of competitive swimming, he was going a 1:49 in 200 yards backstroke. Despite being the home boy, Auburn showed absolutely no interest in him. His back was his best as his 200 free was only 1:41, although I believe he was going a high 23 in 50 meters LC free. Seems our boys find happier homes at Alabama, Tennessee, and Texas.

RE: Foreigh Athletes in the NCAA

Former Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:20:29 GMT

Interesting to me that Auburn limits their team to 25 swimmers. They should follow the example of Arizona and have 34. Let the in-state guys walk on and take a stab at proving themselves. College swimming is not professional swimming by the way. We should hope that colleges consider the diamonds in the rough. Nobody said the entire team had to be made up of all in-state guys, but you have to admit that 1 is pretty pathetic. Rest assured that if the Auburn football team had only 5% of its players from Alabama, the Trustees would be breathing down the coach's back, whatever the record. I bet it is not the coaches decision alone on how big the roster is. The athletic director sets a budget for the sport. Even if many of the athletes are walkons, there is a non-trivial cost to carrying an athlete on the team. Travel, equipment, insurance, etc. all add up. Eddie Reese seems to have the budget to carry 30+ on his roster. The Texas A&M coach told me he was targeted at 24-28 on the roster, including divers. Maybe Hill Taylor went to Texas because of uncertainty with Marsh. Do you know he wasn't recruited? He would be 2nd or 3rd fastest on the roster in backstroke.