Ques on seed times

RE: Ques on seed times

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:48:42 GMT

At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world. Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three.

RE: Ques on seed times

Rykno — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:09:31 GMT

Over here our sign-ups are done via a time database system, so they take the fastest times you have registered. But coaches can go in and "fake" times if you don't have one. Like for example I am going to swim the 1500m in 6 weeks, I have no time, but qualified in the 400m, so I can swim the 1500 too. BUT NT are not allowed. so he will fake a time that I am guessing. I hope that I can swim it under 19:00, but at practice I have yet to swim one under 19:45 so that will be my seed time.

RE: Ques on seed times

pwolf66 — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:37:37 GMT

I'm not sure how sandbagging is cheating unless you are using epo and pulling on the lane line at the same time. Masters is different than age-group swimming. You cannot expect to improve every time you drop in the water (in fact my improvement stopped 20 years ago). I put 1-2 seconds slower on a 200 because I feel I'm going to be a little slower every year. I guess I should just put my college times down each time and when I add 12-15 secs, I can make myself feel like a crappy, old swimmer --but at least I won't be accused of...oh the horror...sandbagger:drown:. Kurt, Putting a 200 time 1-2 sec slower than a PB is fine. What I'm talking about is a consistent behavoir of signifcantly slower seed times. Swimming better than expected or worse than expected happens. But there are folks out there that will deliberately seed a 100 time at least 5 seconds slower than thier PB (said PB swam very recently) just to get clear water. Well, what about the person who was honest with thier seed but gets to eat that person's wake?

RE: Ques on seed times

pwolf66 — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:41:24 GMT

Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three. She does that and I may just acidentally slip and fall in her lane at the turn.

RE: Ques on seed times

The Fortress — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:24:00 GMT

Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three. Who has to resort to bribes? The meet director is my relay mate! Muhahaha!

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:28:11 GMT

I totally agree. I think it's kind of messed up to intentionally put a time much slower than you know you can swim. I brought up my situation because I don't think it is a good tactic, and I was worried that everyone would think I'm a jerk even though I didn't intentionally do it. I think it's weird that you can put whatever seed time you want, since I'm pretty sure for USA Swimming meets (at least the nationals), your time has to be one you made in a meet that is under the time standards and be able to prove that time.

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:16:07 GMT

I think there are 2 negative views on sandbagging. 1 is the "innefficiency" aspect that was noted, and the other is the judgemental "tsk-tsk" kind of view.

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:02:37 GMT

Why let them know your real times at all? I always seed with times that are new event records! Or with times that are 200% slower than normal, to ensure swimming in the first heat.:thhbbb:

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:41:59 GMT

When people put down obvious wrong times I consider it cheating. Why lie about your times?

RE: Ques on seed times

osterber — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:55:00 GMT

My views are rather well documented on this issue. :-) You should seed yourself with your best estimation of the time you will swim at the meet. In most cases, something along the lines of your best time over the past year or so is probably a good estimate. Sandbagging, IMHO, is bad sportsmanship. The point of having a meet is just that - to meet. The purpose of a meet is to swim against other people and race. You may be happy to swim in heat 1, and lap everyone in the 100 free. But if you belonged in the last heat, there are swimmers who are swimming in that heat who are counting on YOU to be in the last heat also, to race against them. They paid their entry fees on the expectation that they would get the opportunity to race against people of similar speed. If you take yourself out of the proper seeding, then you are hurting their swim. If you want to swim by yourself and sandbag and blow people out of the water... go find a lane in a pool somewhere and do it where you're only dealing with yourself. At a meet, other people expect to race against you. Otherwise, they'd all just keep swimming at practice. Also, those people in heat 1 that you're blowing away -- they don't like that. You're subjecting them to embarrassment for your own self interest. Not cool. At the Masters champs that I run, we explicitly reserve the right to adjust your seed time if it is obviously incorrect. Last year, we started a contest at our championship meet to see who could have the best seed times. Swimmers who matched their seed times exactly got a $10 Starbucks card on the spot. We had 8 winners. We posted lists on the web site about the seed time winners (exact match), honorable mentions (within 0.10 seconds), top 50 seeders, worst 50 seeders, and the full list of how every swimmer rated in their seeding ability. Our average "seed error" across almost 4500 swims was about 3.6 seconds per 100 yards, or about 4%. You can see our full analysis here (scroll down to the bottom): www.meetresults.com/.../results.shtml -Rick

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:12:05 GMT

Honest mistakes are okey dokey. Also, if you haven't competed "in who knows how many years", your cool. It is the deliberate fabrication of a seed time for an advantage that gets my goat. Be that advantage still water for a good swim, or resting up because you're tired from your last event and you still blow away the heat, or it is the last event of a meet and you wanna go home. Swim close to your seed time. I don't have as big of a problem with the speedy chap who did a mid 40 for the first 100 of a 1650. I gather that he also hit his seed time. Part of me would have liked to have seen it from the water, but if I was going for a PR I would have been irked for about 18 minutes.

RE: Ques on seed times

Kurt Dickson — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:49:09 GMT

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:14:04 GMT

Rich, you're still a fairly new competitor and you're going to improve at your taper meets. You can't always guess by how much. I though it was b/c of my sheer brilliance and hard work...jeez rain on my parade why doncha? :badday: :lmao:

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:41:28 GMT

That is because you are a great swimmer, don't you always swim faster every time you swim. I agree with Kurt (and Chowmi). I also think it is somewhat inaccurate to say people are at meets to "race." True, but many people are just swimming against themselves and trying to improve on their own times. Often, they don't care what other swimmers are doing, particularly if they're not in their age group. And, George, it is perfectly possible to swim fast with an NT. At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world.

RE: Ques on seed times

Midas — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:26:29 GMT

And I think that practice is a little silly. What's the purpose? Just to be sure you always beat your seed time? Who cares if you swim a little slower? I don't really know. I think it comes down to people not giving themselves enough credit perhaps. "I'm not in as good shape as I was when I swam my best time, so I'll need to enter a slower time," "I swam that time a year ago and now I'm a year older and slower", "I swam that time when I was shaved and tapered and I'm not for this meet," "I don't perform well in this pool," etc. Masters swimmers are good with the excuses!

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:13:40 GMT

I don't care about 1 second. If everyone were within 1 second, we'd be great! I care about 10 seconds in a 100. If you're that far off in a 100 free, then you need to work on your seed times. I happen to run a meet that lots of people seem to want to come to. If I can get better seed times, I can squeeze more people into the meet. More people for you to socialize with on deck. More people for you to drink with after the meet. I don't like telling people that my meet is full. -Rick Yea 10 secs would be bad but I honestly blew off some large chunks of time this summer. There was no way I could have known. I am sure a few folks were giving me the hairy eyeball... Was no way criticising your meet Rick. That's a lot of people...even with 3 full days. I can understand your frustration there. Plus at NEM there are typically enough heats that you'll get your rest...

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:46:48 GMT

I never sandbag... With all due respect to the meet directors, I don't think making the most of a meet you may pay well over $500 to attend by adding a second to a time is really that heinous. At least definitely not at my level. :2cents: Admittedly the mega meets which are usually over subscribed (like NE SCY) may have the luxury of being able to demand/enforce "accurate seeding" but I'd think that many others are not in such a position.

RE: Ques on seed times

Former Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:55:13 GMT

Put in the time that you think you will swim. If you sandbag and put in too slow a time you will swim with the slower swimmers therefore your time may not be as fast as you can swim. It is surprising how fast you can swim against the faster swimmers. It is called competitive swimming and you will not be competitive if you can win your heat easily. If you put in a faster time then you can swim you may swim faster but is that what you should do, I dopn't think you should.

RE: Ques on seed times

The Fortress — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:46:26 GMT

Guess it's just me. No, it obviously bothers many others too. That's why we have all these threads on sandbagging and all its insidious evils. Look, sometimes you just don't know how fast you'll go. Or you don't know how much to allocate to the tech suit factor. Or whatever. As long as it's reasonably in the ball park, I don't see the big deal. And, according to George, it's a huge disadvantage to seed yourself slower.

RE: Ques on seed times

pwolf66 — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:20:25 GMT

Nope, we haven't had a lot of those deck side convos. I think I may have commented on a certain swimmer in your age group who routinely seeds well off his times, not 10%. I am generally not annoyed by this practice. Ultimately, you're competing against the times on the usms database. Guess it's just me.

RE: Ques on seed times

The Fortress — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:16:08 GMT

Hmm, is this a Pot-Kettle situation because I seem to recall quite a few deck side conversations where you have expressed annoyance over folks who do this. Nope, we haven't had a lot of those deck side convos. I think I may have commented on a certain swimmer in your age group who routinely seeds well off his times, not 10%. Or possibly joked about sandbaggers. But I am generally not annoyed or angered by this practice. Ultimately, you're competing against the times on the usms database. And what about the swimmers who do a portion of a race for time and loaf the rest? Are they to be condemned too?

RE: Ques on seed times

knelson — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:05:59 GMT

But I know that a large percentage of those who know what they're doing seed themselves about a second or so per 100 slower than they expect to swim. And I think that practice is a little silly. What's the purpose? Just to be sure you always beat your seed time? Who cares if you swim a little slower?

RE: Ques on seed times

pwolf66 — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:02:29 GMT

Well, gold star for you! :thhbbb: I wouldn't seed at my best time if I was unrested. Doesn't make sense to me. Why does it bother you so much? Do you think they have an advantage? Ridicule?!?! Uh, it's masters and we're all adults, no need. Hmm, is this a Pot-Kettle situation because I seem to recall quite a few deck side conversations where you have expressed annoyance over folks who do this.

RE: Ques on seed times

The Fortress — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:58:55 GMT

I seed my best time in the last year. Period. But I have taken many a look at meet results from Nationals (both SCY and LCM) for various folks and looked at thier seed times, then looked in the data base for previous times and see that thier seed times for NATIONALS, is 10% slower than a time they swam over TWO months earlier. And then they proceed to swim 20% under that seed time. It's THAT kind of behavoir that drives me nuts. If someone swims an event once a year and beats thier time by 10% (or more) fine, that happens. But for those folks who swim quite a few meets and have a good history of times, to not seed a reasonable time is just sad. And I am referring to swimmers who are in the top 10-15% of thier age groups. A less accomplished swimmer can EASILY have a dramatic breakthru. But if a swimmer puts up several sub 23 50 frees and then seeds a 24.50 and swims low 22, that's someone who needs to be called out and ridiculed. Well, gold star for you! :thhbbb: I wouldn't seed at my best time if I was unrested. Doesn't make sense to me. Why does it bother you so much? Do you think they have an advantage? Ridicule?!?! Uh, it's masters and we're all adults, no need.

RE: Ques on seed times

pwolf66 — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:43:33 GMT