Strategy for 200 FR

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 20 May 2009 15:15:43 GMT

Not to argue but rather than threshold training may I suggest MaxVo2 sets.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 20 May 2009 14:11:56 GMT

I'm starting to love the 200 Fr, and get a beginners feel for it, though I expect there are many nuances to learn over time as I develop... Thanks Geochuck, Knelson, and Gbrain for the comments and support! I'll report back in a few months after my next meet.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 20 May 2009 13:09:21 GMT

Your plan looks good, focus on getting the last two 50s down to 34s.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

knelson — Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:19 GMT

I guess experimenting with increasing my back-half pace, especially in my workouts, especially when fatigued, should help. This kind of thing might help, but I think good old-fashioned threshold training will pay the most dividends. Try to do sets longer than 30 minutes where you are working close to your threshold with very little rest between repeats. Obviously you'll also need some speed wok, too, because a 200 has a definite speed component. Another critical element is your kick. You'll see lots of people advocating kicking like crazy the last 50. This is great, but can also cause you to die like a dog on the final 25. You really need your legs to be in great shape to keep that kick going all the way to the end of the race.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

jim thornton — Wed, 20 May 2009 10:48:57 GMT

Lightning, You might find my blog on the 200 of some interest. I took the winning race from NCAA's and broke it down into 50s, guestimated at the winner's likely fastest sprint 50 speed, and then calculated how far each of his 200-race 50s diverged from this. You can find the blog at: forums.usms.org/blog.php For what it's worth, I tried my best to put this same strategy in effect the last time I swam a 200, and got my best time in 6 years (albeit aided by a now-outlawed suit whose name still chokes me up so badly I can't bring myself to utter it outloud...)

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Tue, 19 May 2009 08:09:52 GMT

1:06 to 1:12, hmm.. I forget to look at the hundred splits. I guess experimenting with increasing my back-half pace, especially in my workouts, especially when fatigued, should help.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Tue, 19 May 2009 07:34:42 GMT

A well paced swim Lightning. A best persoal time is great. You can now experiment with starting out a little faster and hold your last 150 at a little faster pace also.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Tue, 19 May 2009 07:19:13 GMT

I just swam this race on Saturday(an unusual SCY during LCM season), tried to apply this thread's advice, and dropped 6 seconds from my time - a PB :bliss::banana: The splits are below. 31.97 1:06.67 (34.70) 1:42.66 (35.99) 2:18.95 (36.29) I held myself in check the first 50, stayed long and efficient, slightly pressed the second 50, pushed hard the 3, started to feel the burn and focused again on staying long and efficient, gave it all the last 50. My goal was 2:15, trying for 32, 34,34,34, I was wiped out, but not in pain, so i'm wondering if I didnt push hard enough at some point. Should I have started out faster (my 50 FR is 27.0) Any and all feedback on my splits are welcome!

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

knelson — Tue, 19 May 2009 03:38:37 GMT

31.97 1:06.67 (34.70) 1:42.66 (35.99) 2:18.95 (36.29) Should I have started out faster I don't think so. Your hundreds were 1:06, 1:12. A six second drop off is pretty big.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:31:22 GMT

Lightning, 3rd 50: This is where I generally try to kick into thinking as if I'm trying to negative split the race. (I won't actually, but want my body to think that's the goal). My goal is to build throughout the last 100. In the 3rd 50, I focus on increasing my stroke rate. I don't think about shortening my stroke length, but it happens naturally and my stroke count for a length generally goes up by 2 strokes. Pick up the legs, but still not blasting them. 4th 50: "let her rip" -- blast legs, increase stroke rate, don't breathe into the finish. This is great advice. You should have enough energy left to, at least, "feel" like you are negative splitting even if you aren't actually. That is why it is so important that the first 100 is smooth but fast. If your stroke has already started to break down at the end of the first 100 then you are going to be in trouble. Hope it goes well.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:34:32 GMT

When I am swimming a 200 strategically, this is what I am thinking. 1st 50: easy stroke, don't kick at all 2nd 50: pick up the pace a little on the stroke, nice easy kick 3rd 50: strong stoke, build to strong kick 7th 25: build to sprint stroke, strong kick 8th 25: all out kick and stroke Now my mind thinks I am neg splitting, but my body is even splitting the last 3 50s and my first 50 is a couple seconds faster then the other 50s. I wish there wasn't such a disconnect between what I think I am doing and what I am actually doing, but that is my thought process to split my 200 well. This is probably why everyone thinks the 200 is so hard. You actually have enough time to think about your race, but not ponder it. And what you think you are doing and how that translates into splits probably varies for everyone. My suggestion for figuring out your mental game plan. Start doing fast 200s regularly in practice. Swim your 200 at a pace you know you can make, then turn it on full blast the last 25. Next time add another 25 that is fast before your full blast. What does it feel like to swim that 25 and still be able to go full blast on the final 25. This will help you figure out mentally what you need to do for the last 150. As for the first 50, only real racing will help you. I am so hyped up on adrenaline, rested and ready to race, that if I think I am going out faster than warm up speed, then I am really going out way to fast.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:55:00 GMT

Lots of great feedback here. I think what it all boils down to is doing sets at near-race-pace in practice and see what feels best. The only advice I got from my coach the first time he pegged me to do a 200 free (nobody else volunteered) he gave me one bit of advice.. "It's a sprint! Go baby, go!" Needless to say, I didn't do very well in that race. I died at 125 horribly... As time went on, I got used to being seeded near the top and keeping pace with the leader for the first 100 within a body length or so, then blowing them out in the last 75-100. Being used to swimming the 500/1500/1650 gives you a good bit of energy available to blow out in a 200 free. :)

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Patrick W. Brundage — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:25:27 GMT

If your good, it's a sprint. Same goes for anything under a mile :) The only advice I got from my coach the first time he pegged me to do a 200 free (nobody else volunteered) he gave me one bit of advice.. "It's a sprint! Go baby, go!" Needless to say, I didn't do very well in that race. IMHO, thinking of the 200 as a sprint gets a lot of people in trouble and is the path to significant pain. I think even the truly great swimmers at this race are not "sprinting" but are controlling their fast pace like referenced above.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:10:32 GMT

1st 50: easy stroke, don't kick at all 2nd 50: pick up the pace a little on the stroke, nice easy kick 3rd 50: strong stoke, build to strong kick 7th 25: build to sprint stroke, strong kick 8th 25: all out kick and stroke I like this. It breaks the 200 down and gives you something to focus on for each section of the race. I'm gonna use this advice next month for my 2-back... seems a little less intimidating when you look at it like that. =)

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:50:36 GMT

I'd be tempted to agree that a 200 is at least 1/2 sprint. If you watch it, I don't think anybody is going all-out from the start. I think the first 75 or 100 is feeling out your opponents, seeing who is fading, seeing how you feel energy-wise. The remainder of the race is when to kick it up, and how long you can sustain that pace...the only way to figure either of those answers is by practicing race-time situations. Now I'm not saying that nobody can full-out sprint a 200. I am saying that anybody who goes all out in the first 50 will not have the same amount of speed in their last 50. But then again, I've always been a conservationist when it comes to energy in the pool. I go steady until about halfway, then if I've still got plenty of energy, I turn on the burners :)

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:40:55 GMT

I've never raced a 200, or even a 100 FR; my 50 FR SCY is 26.8. I'm in a USA meet Sept 20th - expecting to get trounced by kids half my age, but still I want to put in a good showing. How should I race? What should my 50 pace be? How do I not die on the last 50? etc... I'm 44, male, swimming masters only 2 years, still learning lots, and open to all feedback - thanks!If your good, it's a sprint. Same goes for anything under a mile :) Follow the leader for the first 125. Pick up speed for a 25, then sprint a 50.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

orca1946 — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:07:46 GMT

Hold the 1st 50 at 28 then the mid 1oo at a fast race speed then all out last50. Also remember that you will also be swimming in other events plus relays, so you will have to pace yourself to finish all events. Good luck

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:45:28 GMT

I'm having another go at the 200 FR this Saturday in a USA meet (the kiddos are getting used thrashing me now, but I'm still feel out of place and self-conscious swimming against them). I've learned and improved each time I race...so hopefully I will this time too. Sept 2008 splits 30.7, 36.8, 41.1, 41.8 total 2:30.76 Nov 2008 splits 31.1, 35.6, 38.4, 39.0 total 2:24.19 My goal is to still take the first 50 out slower than I have. then build, but holding under a 34.0. Maybe go 32, 34, 34, 34????? I am shooting for a 2:15(dream goal). (I realize its slow, but for my background I never swam competetively or even trained until a few years ago). I plan to really stick the turns, and dolphin kick out strong - my heighth and strength can help me here. I need to remember to kick more as the race progresses - last time I was told, somewhat tongue in cheek, that my legs should be well rested after that race. Any advice or encouragement is welcome - and greatly appreciated!

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Patrick W. Brundage — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:47:48 GMT

I'm having another go at the 200 FR this Saturday in a USA meet ... Sept 2008 splits 30.7, 36.8, 41.1, 41.8 total 2:30.76 Nov 2008 splits 31.1, 35.6, 38.4, 39.0 total 2:24.19 My goal is to still take the first 50 out slower than I have. then build, but holding under a 34.0. Maybe go 32, 34, 34, 34????? I am shooting for a 2:15(dream goal) ... I plan to really stick the turns, and dolphin kick out strong ... Any advice or encouragement is welcome - and greatly appreciated! Two things. Looking at your times you seems to die pretty bad. I suggest trying to hold that second 50 pace (35-36), and then see about a 33 or 34 at the end. Second, on your dolphin kicking thing. I see this all the time. Unless you are really good at it I wouldn't focus on doing them. If you do them wrong they will slow you down and wear you out. Lightning, I agree with geek on the pacing. Looking at some of the splits of the "fast" Masters guys this season: they generally split their 100s at about 49% / 51% their last three 50s are about the same For you to hit 2:15, then: you should aim for 1:06/1:09 for your 100s you would target your 50s as 31.5, 34.5, 34.5, 34.5 Now, easy to say, harder to do. In my experience, I try to focus on the following when swimming this way: 1st 50: The problem is not to swim too fast. In the excitement of a race, I have to consciously try to swim easier than I think I should be swimming. What works for me is to go lighter on the legs and really think about long/strong stroke count. 2nd 50: Consistency is the key. Ideally, you won't have to focus on changing your stroke rate, length or kick during this 50. 3rd 50: This is where I generally try to kick into thinking as if I'm trying to negative split the race. (I won't actually, but want my body to think that's the goal). My goal is to build throughout the last 100. In the 3rd 50, I focus on increasing my stroke rate. I don't think about shortening my stroke length, but it happens naturally and my stroke count for a length generally goes up by 2 strokes. Pick up the legs, but still not blasting them. 4th 50: "let her rip" -- blast legs, increase stroke rate, don't breathe into the finish. One other key to doing a strong 200, I believe, is to breathe quite a lot throughout the race. This is not a sprint and you'll need that air to be able to drive your legs on the last 100.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

aquageek — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:55:23 GMT

Two things. Looking at your times you seems to die pretty bad. I suggest trying to hold that second 50 pace (35-36), and then see about a 33 or 34 at the end. Second, on your dolphin kicking thing. I see this all the time. Unless you are really good at it I wouldn't focus on doing them. If you do them wrong they will slow you down and wear you out. Good luck, you've already shown nice improvement.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:08:52 GMT

Maybe he asked the timer for a split for the first 50 and had never broken 21.0. If so, he did a nice job of hanging on and he avoided DFL.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:43:22 GMT

Thanks Geek and PWBrundage for the great advice! On the dolphin kicks, I'm not that strong, so I should focus on very tight streamlines and push-offs instead (when I'm tired they can get sloppy). I like the pacing suggestions, but I still am learning how my target times feel during each split, i will give it a try. Stay long and strong, and then build... I do breathe a lot, but I often forget to kick much. Thanks again!

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

pwolf66 — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:47:46 GMT

15th place is a perfect example of how NOT to split a 200 free that must have been agonizing The correct way to swim a 200 is easy speed, breathe, save your legs for the 2nd 100, and finish tough. 15 Jackson, Jonath Texas 1:36.92 1:37.25 2 r:+0.69 20.97 44.37 (23.40) 1:09.92 (25.55) 1:37.25 (27.33) Ouch, 20.97? yeah, that must have hurt like hades. Still only 3 tenths higher than seed. I wonder if he just got a little too worked up and went out way too fast? I think that this shows how important it is to have race experience so you know how to swim the race. I imagine that he would have been in much better shape swimming the front 50 in 21.5 and probably would have gone 2 seconds faster over all.

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

ande — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:11:33 GMT

here's how men split the 200 free at the UT Invite 1st - 8th are good examples of how to split a a 200 1st place broke the american record 6th place had the largest drop off from when we compare his 3rd 50 to his 4th 50th 15th place is a perfect example of how NOT to split a 200 free that must have been agonizing The correct way to swim a 200 is easy speed, breathe, save your legs for the 2nd 100, and finish tough. Times for the the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th 50's should be very close, even and preferably decended, but not ascended. Keep your 2nd, 3rd & 4th 50's within 0.25 of each other. Keep your last 50 within 2.0 of your first 50. Event 20 Men 200 Yard Freestyle === A - Final === 1 Walters, David Texas 1:34.85 1:31.83 AUTO 20 r:+0.75 21.48 44.77 (23.29) 1:08.11 (23.34) 1:31.83 (23.72) 2 Berens, Ricky Texas 1:35.71 1:32.82 AUTO 17 r:+0.76 21.85 45.67 (23.82) 1:09.42 (23.75) 1:32.82 (23.40) 3 Basson, Jean Arizona 1:33.26 1:33.48 AUTO 16 r:+0.77 22.14 45.66 (23.52) 1:09.34 (23.68) 1:33.48 (24.14) 4 Klueh, Michael Texas 1:35.90 1:34.50 CONS 15 r:+0.76 22.00 45.98 (23.98) 1:10.29 (24.31) 1:34.50 (24.21) 5 Shapira Bar-Or, Arizona 1:36.29 1:34.83 CONS 14 r:+0.80 22.32 46.35 (24.03) 1:10.60 (24.25) 1:34.83 (24.23) 6 Verlatti, Ryan Texas 1:35.79 1:35.25 CONS 13 r:+0.78 22.46 46.58 (24.12) 1:10.59 (24.01) 1:35.25 (24.66) 7 Wilcox, Jackson Texas 1:35.91 1:36.11 CONS 12 r:+0.77 22.57 46.77 (24.20) 1:11.60 (24.83) 1:36.11 (24.51) 8 Waked, Vinny Arizona St 1:36.34 1:36.57 CONS 11 r:+0.77 22.83 47.17 (24.34) 1:11.76 (24.59) 1:36.57 (24.81) === B - Final === 9 Boyle, Sean Arizona St 1:36.34 1:35.91 CONS 9 r:+0.74 22.93 47.47 (24.54) 1:11.82 (24.35) 1:35.91 (24.09) 10 Patton, Sean Texas 1:36.41 1:35.96 CONS 7 r:+0.82 22.56 46.59 (24.03) 1:11.10 (24.51) 1:35.96 (24.86) 11 Tipton, Alexand Arizona 1:37.06 1:36.81 CONS 6 r:+0.72 22.64 47.12 (24.48) 1:12.09 (24.97) 1:36.81 (24.72) 12 McNeilis, Kyle Texas 1:36.80 1:36.82 CONS 5 r:+0.78 23.03 47.52 (24.49) 1:12.26 (24.74) 1:36.82 (24.56) 13 Jameson, Peter Texas 1:37.56 1:36.83 CONS 4 r:+0.77 22.37 46.62 (24.25) 1:11.61 (24.99) 1:36.83 (25.22) 14 Smith, Jordan Arizona 1:36.98 1:37.12 3 r:+0.69 22.40 46.71 (24.31) 1:11.62 (24.91) 1:37.12 (25.50) 15 Jackson, Jonath Texas 1:36.92 1:37.25 2 r:+0.69 20.97 44.37 (23.40) 1:09.92 (25.55) 1:37.25 (27.33) 16 Svendsen, Tyler Arizona 1:37.86 1:37.31 1 r:+0.78 22.80 47.37 (24.57) 1:12.43 (25.06) 1:37.31 (24.88) === C - Final === 17 Feigen, Jimmy Texas 1:37.95 1:37.27 r:+0.70 22.10 46.66 (24.56) 1:12.03 (25.37) 1:37.27 (25.24) 18 Thompson, Kyle Wisconsin 1:38.07 1:37.86 r:+0.68 22.38 47.54 (25.16) 1:12.93 (25.39) 1:37.86 (24.93) 19 Kirkpatrick, Ad Arizona St 1:38.59 1:38.68 r:+0.76 23.04 48.11 (25.07) 1:13.24 (25.13) 1:38.68 (25.44) 20 Nagle, Brett Wisconsin 1:38.21 1:38.88 r:+0.71 22.97 47.94 (24.97) 1:13.53 (25.59) 1:38.88 (25.35) 21 Raffard, Arthur Arizona 1:38.97 1:39.21 r:+0.81 23.26 48.23 (24.97) 1:13.93 (25.70) 1:39.21 (25.28) 21 Iddiols, Robert Arizona 1:39.24 1:39.21 r:+0.72 22.97 48.08 (25.11) 1:13.70 (25.62) 1:39.21 (25.51) 23 Robertson, Jim Texas 1:39.18 1:39.63 r:+0.76 22.96 48.26 (25.30) 1:14.31 (26.05) 1:39.63 (25.32) 24 Rice, Scott Wisconsin 1:39.11 1:39.81 r:+0.82 23.29 48.63 (25.34) 1:14.15 (25.52) 1:39.81 (25.66) === D - Final === 25 Van Roekel, Ben Texas 1:39.88 1:37.35 r:+0.77 22.35 47.29 (24.94) 1:12.54 (25.25) 1:37.35 (24.81) 26 Stacy, Peter Arizona 1:40.34 1:38.35 r:+0.79 23.69 49.17 (25.48) 1:14.27 (25.10) 1:38.35 (24.08) 27 Caskey, Neil Texas 1:40.58 1:38.51 r:+0.78 22.77 47.72 (24.95) 1:12.99 (25.27) 1:38.51 (25.52) 28 Koubratoff, Rob Arizona 1:39.94 1:40.47 r:+0.81 23.64 49.42 (25.78) 1:15.00 (25.58) 1:40.47 (25.47) 29 Richardson, Tre UC Davis 1:40.21 1:40.49 r:+0.77 23.61 49.69 (26.08) 1:15.17 (25.48) 1:40.49 (25.32) 30 Lengfeld, Luke Wisconsin 1:40.39 1:40.66 r:+0.74 23.35 49.25 (25.90) 1:15.71 (26.46) 1:40.66 (24.95) 31 Underwood, Russ UC Davis 1:41.02 1:41.13 r:+0.64 23.35 48.61 (25.26) 1:14.47 (25.86) 1:41.13 (26.66) 32 Morris, Jeff Wisconsin 1:40.74 1:41.42 r:+0.85 23.72 49.33 (25.61) 1:15.63 (26.30) 1:41.42 (25.79) === Preliminaries === 7 Jostes, Scott Texas 1:36.21 22.49 47.39 (24.90) 1:12.02 (24.63) 1:36.21 (24.19) 21 Davies, Phil Wisconsin 1:38.43 22.36 47.08 (24.72) 1:12.64 (25.56) 1:38.43 (25.79) 23 Sorensen, Kyle Wisconsin 1:38.86 22.65 47.80 (25.15) 1:13.54 (25.74) 1:38.86 (25.32) 28 Nemeth, Chris Wisconsin 1:39.83 22.53 47.72 (25.19) 1:13.35 (25.63) 1:39.83 (26.48) 36 Daneke, Alex UC Davis 1:40.89 23.18 48.79 (25.61) 1:14.67 (25.88) 1:40.89 (26.22) 38 Schaffer, Alex Texas 1:41.32 23.33 48.39 (25.06) 1:14.86 (26.47) 1:41.32 (26.46) 39 Yamashita, Yuta Arizona St 1:41.34 23.81 49.17 (25.36) 1:15.32 (26.15) 1:41.34 (26.02) 40 Madwa, Mohammed Arizona St 1:41.45 23.24 48.72 (25.48) 1:14.92 (26.20) 1:41.45 (26.53) 41 Arbios, Alex UC Davis 1:41.51 23.78 49.13 (25.35) 1:15.37 (26.24) 1:41.51 (26.14) 42 Andrews, Conner Wisconsin 1:42.08 23.07 48.72 (25.65) 1:15.30 (26.58) 1:42.08 (26.78) 43 Wiesner, Steven Wisconsin 1:42.40 22.79 48.22 (25.43) 1:14.61 (26.39) 1:42.40 (27.79) 44 Kraus, Evan UC Davis 1:42.54 23.55 49.40 (25.85) 1:15.72 (26.32) 1:42.54 (26.82) 45 Roberts, Fraser Wisconsin 1:42.73 22.97 48.31 (25.34) 1:15.22 (26.91) 1:42.73 (27.51) 46 Murtagh, Colin Texas 1:42.82 22.77 47.81 (25.04) 1:15.23 (27.42) 1:42.82 (27.59) 47 Wise, Dustin Texas 1:43.09 23.16 48.57 (25.41) 1:14.89 (26.32) 1:43.09 (28.20) 48 Ruane, Nolan Arizona St 1:43.11 23.43 49.00 (25.57) 1:15.65 (26.65) 1:43.11 (27.46) 49 Sutton, Donald Texas 1:43.16 23.72 50.12 (26.40) 1:16.79 (26.67) 1:43.16 (26.37) 50 Borchard, Adam UC Davis 1:43.27 23.88 50.23 (26.35) 1:17.14 (26.91) 1:43.27 (26.13) 51 Anderson, Kyle UC Davis 1:43.48 24.19 50.42 (26.23) 1:17.07 (26.65) 1:43.48 (26.41) 52 Lagerhausen, We Wisconsin 1:43.58 22.55 48.15 (25.60) 1:15.10 (26.95) 1:43.58 (28.48) 53 Hunter, Pierce UC Davis 1:44.14 24.05 50.16 (26.11) 1:17.05 (26.89) 1:44.14 (27.09) 54 Robinson, Brand UC Davis 1:45.54 23.64 50.03 (26.39) 1:17.64 (27.61) 1:45.54 (27.90) 55 Houston, Craig TXLA 1:45.63 23.59 53.20 (29.61) 1:16.75 (23.55) 1:45.63 (28.88) 56 Calenti, Tony Arizona St 1:46.88 25.37 52.38 (27.01) 1:19.63 (27.25) 1:46.88 (27.25) 57 Donnelly, Danie UC Davis 1:48.56 25.26 52.84 (27.58) 1:20.70 (27.86) 1:48.56 (27.86)

RE: Strategy for 200 FR

Former Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:24:29 GMT

Nice job!!!!!!! I think from here you are in a very good position to go under 2:20. Focus on good turns that maximize your free speed off the walls with a good push to a tight streamline. Work on improving your kick and try to hit at least 2 SDKs off every turn in practice to drill that as habit for your race. I think you can go 31/35/35/36. Paul Thanks! I'm pretty excited, especially since I've hit plateaus in other events. Thinking about your suggested splits... would it make sense to practice broken 200's and work at making 50s @ 35 seconds - and over time decrease the rest interval inbetween? Randal