Clovis in 09??

RE: Clovis in 09??

Muppet — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:08:01 GMT

ok, everyone who keeps posting a list - you are leaving out Stanford / Worlds 2006. Though it was not USMS Nationals, it was held in lieu of a "nationals" and treated as such. And in my book, counts as one more for the west coast.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Muppet — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:01:45 GMT

Mark, Thanks for your insight. For those of you who are wondering why we can't get a national meet in DC, there are an incredible amount of variables we have to consider. Let me start out by saying that Potomac Valley is now the 4th largest LMSC in USMS by numbers, but the smallest geographic area. Translation: lots of swimmer demand on facilities! That is our first hurdle. In order to host SC Nationals, you need to have 2 25-yard pools, plus warm down space. If we expect 1500 - 2000 swimmers, we would like to see 8-16 lanes just for warm-down. Additionally, we need seating space for 1500 - 2000. We require more space and time (as the length of our days are longer than kids meets) than any other championship caliber meet that I am aware of. For a LC Nationals, you need to have a 50 meter pool, plus 6-10 lanes of warm down space (typically only 25 yard). Additionally, we need about seating for about 1000. Nearly all facilities in our area capable of 2x25 courses have only one small instructional pool for warm-up/warm-down: UMD, GMU, UMBC (with the indoor POS 25y). There are some other 50m-only facilities too, but they do us no good. Spectating is tight at all three, but UMD has the best locker room I've been in across the country. The only place I can think of that would be different would be the City of Rockville's (Public) outdoor 50m pool that has two indoor SC pools for warm-up/warm-down, but that would be an SCM nationals - no bulkheads. Running a LCM Nationals outdoors @ Rockville in the summer in DC would be a challenge. Aside from the fact that the public facility has county programs all summer, we don't have chillers around here, and with two big USS meets and the county's flagship pool for summer league, they're already closed a lot. Renting the place for 5 days could be a challenging sell to them (and expensive for us). Plus, if sessions last anywhere past 3pm, there is a huge threat of thunderstorms. Further limiting the locations willing to bid on our championships is the number of volunteers that it takes to run a meet. In Tempe in 2003 we had about 500 6-hour volunteer shifts to cover. Unless you have a strong team or teams in the area committed to making this meet happen, this is a challenge. Amen! Any meet director will tell you that volunteers are a huge ? for any meet. May and August are tough times for volunteers. In May, school is winding down - private schools (and there are a LOT in the DC area) tend have exams and let out ~a week before Memorial Day. August is prime vacation month, plus parents are shipping their older kids off to college. DC is a ghost town in August - everyone hits the beaches from Carolinas to Jersey. BTW, Baltimore's meet in 2000 was indeed huge - but there were a lot of people who showed up in Catonsville and wondered where the brand new natatorium was (they were looking for our pool, down the road at UMD).

RE: Clovis in 09??

Midas — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:53:17 GMT

I'm sure nobody cares, but I'm hoping to go to Clovis. If I make it, it will be the first nationals meet that I have attended since getting back into swimming a year ago. The primary reason I plan to attend this meet over the ones this year in Austin and Portland is that I can drive to Clovis (though it will be a long drive...). It didn't look to me as if there is any significant west coast bias in terms of where meets are held. But if there is, it sort of makes sense since the west coast is where the majority of USMS swimmers are located. Size alone isn't necessarily a fair justification for a bias, but it does mean that there are likely to be more large teams on the west coast capable of "hosting" one of these massive swim meets. (Unlike USA-S meets, which have parent volunteers, I'm guessing most volunteers for one of these large USMS meets have to be spouses of swimmers and the "fitness"/ noncompetitive swimmer members of a large team--I'd guess you would need a large team to find sufficient volunteers from those groups.) Also, it's probably easier to have the requisite facilities when everything can be outdoors. Maybe USMS should try relaxing the facility requirements? I remember plenty of USA-S meets where all the swimmers sat in a gymnasium that was a ways away from the pool deck. Can we do the same thing? I think the most important thing is to have sufficient warm-up/warm-down space. Everything else we should find ways around.. I will note that the Pacific Masters LCM championship meet has been held in a pool that wouldn't even come close to qualifying for the nationals standard for the simple fact that it doesn't have a warm-down pool. Seven of the eight lanes of the pool are used for competition with the eighth lane used for warm-ups/warm-downs with absolutely no buffer. I agree that is way less than ideal but if we can live with that, why have so many requirements for nationals meet? (Having said that, I do think it's very important for the nationals meet to have a facility with a separate warm-up/warm-down pool--I'm just saying that we should be as flexible as possible after that.)

RE: Clovis in 09??

pdjang — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:36:23 GMT

I'm just back from a trip to scenic New York and spent the weekend in Buffalo. Do they have pools in Buffalo? A visit to www.swimmersguide.com came up with about 10 pools are two are outstanding: Erie Community College's Flickinger Center www.ecc.edu/.../locations.asp which hosted a recent NCAA Div 2 championships. While it was closed for the Labor Day weekend, it advertises an indoor 50 meter pool and Two indoor 25 yard pools. Next door, Buffalo was hosting a major indigestion festival (Buffalo Wings). Plenty of parking, hotels and accoutrements. I drove about 15 minutes to the University of Buffalo's Alumni center www.ubathletics.buffalo.edu/.../ was able to swim in their indoor 50 meter pool (moveable floor and bulkhead). Sadly, they dumped the men's program around 1996, but they have a strong womens program. And for the Open water advocates, they have a nearby river with a little waterfall! See you in the water, Philipp

RE: Clovis in 09??

mctrusty — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:22:43 GMT

As someone living nearly equidistant from Clovis and Indianapolis, I would rather go to Clovis for the vacation aspect. Not only is it close to Yosemite, it's also close to King's Canyon and Sequoia National Parks. And Death Valley would be on the way if my wife and I drive out. We'd go to nats and then take the opportunity to do some great hiking and sightseeing.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Michael Heather — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:49:09 GMT

Michael, I am very confused by this paragraph. Are you saying that consideration for the location of Nationals should also consider the non-competiive USMS members? I am saying that USMS must balance its programs to also consider the needs of the non-competitive swimmers, which make it possible for this organization to exist. USMS does not run nationals. We approve bids for the meets. They are put on by host organizations who have been vetted by the championship committee and voted upon by the house of delegates (your representatives). There have been some bids that never saw the light of day because of deficiencies in the bid (not enough warmup space, bath-locker rooms, etc.), so we are getting the best of the bids that are presented to us. Unfortunately, not many pools are built next door to an amusement park or museum, so we have to hold the meets wherever the pools are. Sorry that Clovis does not live up to your standards, but there will be plenty of swimmers there that will enjoy the experience.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Former Member — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:37:14 GMT

Maybe West Coast folks are more inclined to put out the effort than East Coast folks? Just a thought - not saying East Coasters are lazy or anything like that so don't go off on me. :whiteflag: Wow Jim, this is taking passive-agressive to new heights...or depths! :laugh2: I'm surprised the WC folks can squeeze it all in what with "latte hour," surfing, and beach volley... ;)

RE: Clovis in 09??

pwolf66 — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 08:45:49 GMT

I may be wrong, but I see from some of your posts that you think in primarily the competitive mode. There is nothing wrong with that, I am only establishing a baseline. USMS is made up of over 75% non-competitive swimmers. I do not call them fitness, because I presume that even the highly competitive swimmers derive some fitness benefit from the activity. We cannot ignore them to charge about only looking for competition venues, but have to balance our efforts in order to serve all of the membership. This results some times in no one being happy. Michael, I am very confused by this paragraph. Are you saying that consideration for the location of Nationals should also consider the non-competiive USMS members? If so, why? Isn't Nationals a swim meet and by that fact a competitive affair? Therefor only the competitive swimmers would attend? If that was the case, then you could hold Nationals in Upper Slobovia and you would get a large percentage of the competition contingent. BUT......... For a moment here, let's pretend that Nationals are about increasing the participation, then you have to consider methods to draw out the non-competition folks. And rather than put Nationals in non-attractive locales (and I for one, consider Fresno a non-attractive locale, we can have a private discussion on that one if you wish), consideration has to be given to incentives to come and see what a Nationals is like. Speaking for myself (the only person I CAN speak for), having Nationals in locales that offer more than just a swim meet can only be a positive thing. I don't have a long history of attending Nationals as I just started in Masters a year ago but I have attended both Austin and Portland. Maybe that was just first year euphoria that I attended both. I seriously doubt I will be able to do that again unless one of the Nationals is within easy driving distance. But I do plan on attending 1 Nationals a year until I leave this planet and so I have to evaluate the cost-benefit for SCY and LCM. And for me, 2009's winner is Indy. For the following reasons, in no apparent order: - It's closer, I can drive to Indy in less time than it would take me to travel to Fresno. (9 hour total drive, when I want to leave versus 11+ hour total plane trip with limited options) - It's indoors - I don't do well in outdoor, open air venues. - There are things for my family to do there (museums, a nice local zoo, etc.) while I am swimming. - More of my friends will be attending Indy than Fresno. But, in my limited experience with USMS, it appears to me (there may be things going on that I am not aware of but as this is MY perception, it is 100% accurate) that USMS is failing in it's primary responsibility concerning Nationals. And that is to make Nationals as attractive AS POSSIBLE to all USMS members and in doing so, to possibly attract new members. If Clovis was the only SCY bid for 2009, then so be it. But WHY was it the only bid? What is USMS doing to reach out to it's 44,000+ members to try to HELP generate more bids. I know what folks here such as Mark, Paul, etc. are doing and that is fantastic but where are the indications that USMS leadership is doing something about it? It might be out there, but I can't see it from where I am.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Chris Stevenson — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 07:23:11 GMT

When would you put the open water swim? After? Does that discriminate against open water swimmers if it is after the meet is over with. By the way, Clovis is offering an open water swim Monday after nationals so we may find out this year. In the spirit of cooperation, the Open Water Committee worked with the Championship Comittee to make this happen and for it to be the 1-mile national championship for 2009. Mark, I like open water swimming just fine, as you know, but I think it complicates things to worry too much about it when trying to find a site for nationals. It should be a second (or third) consideration; if it works, that's great. By the way, I really do appreciate the work you have done on the PR bid. It is nice to have options!

RE: Clovis in 09??

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:11:07 GMT

Growing up on the east coast, I wasn't either. But now that I've been doing it for a year, I couldn't imagine going back. Are you a backstroker though? lol You Pacific Masters folk are very very fast.

RE: Clovis in 09??

some_girl — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:06:47 GMT

some girl: warm down is overrated. I'd love to have a meet in Boston. Hot showers are where it's at. I think even the BU pool though had only a few extra lanes in the diving well (like 4) and Harvard only can run one SCY course, cause the warmdown lanes are shallow. Maybe MIT? But they never have meets there.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Midas — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:06:32 GMT

I think you probably just have more pools and more pool time out west. I'm not a huge fan of swimming outdoors myself. Growing up on the east coast, I wasn't either. But now that I've been doing it for a year, I couldn't imagine going back. Again, we probably have more pools because we don't need to enclose them in a building. All you need is the space and a water heater and you're in business. I'm happy with the meets moving around the country. Except in very rare circumstances, though, unless I can drive to it I won't be attending. (I bet that mine is the majority view, too, though maybe not among posters at this board.) I don't care that much because I get plenty of competition at the Pacific Masters championship meets and I look to the top ten times as the true "championship" since even in a good year not nearly all of the best swimmers go to nationals...

RE: Clovis in 09??

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:00:52 GMT

Well, if 2/3 are held in the western and central US, that also appears to mean in this instance that 2/3 are held in the eastern and central US... Here's the list from an earlier post breaking it down: East coast Ft Lauderdale 1998 LC Baltimore 2000 LC Rutgers 2003 LC Savannah 2004 LC Ft Lauderdale 2005 SC Coral Springs 2006 SC Central Indianapolis 1998 SC Minneapolis 1999 LC Indianaplois 2000 SC Cleveland 20002 LC Indianapolis 2004 SC The Woodlands 2007 LC Austin TX 2008 SC West Coast Santa Clara 1999 SC Santa Clara 2001 SC Hawaii 2002 SC Federal Way 2001 LC Tempe 2003 SC Mission Viejo 2005 Lc Federal Way 2007 SC Mt Hood 2008 LC I think Minnesota and Texas are each a push for east and west coasters (Texas may be a little closer for the west coasters while Minnesota a little closer for the east coasters, but both are in about the middle of the country.) Cleveland and Indy are much closer to the east coast than the west. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any northeast meets, but I have no idea why this is the case. Hopefully bids are not being ignored. It certainly appears that the east coast has received their fair share of the meets. I'm not sure if having most of the meets where most of the USMS members are located is strictly a superficially good thing either, but it's not really worth debating. There is no right answer to that question. I would say that the west coast dominance in your age group probably has very little to do with a possible national championship location bias and almost everything to do with the fact that there are just more west coast swimmers in USMS. As for the reason for the larger west coast participation in USMS, I bet it has to do with the fact that we swim outdoors year-round. Indoor pools are miserable compared to training under an open sky. Swimming in a heated pool on a cool, rainy day is actually kind of fun. I was really just responding to your point about 40% participation justifying 40% west coast national locations. Nothing else really. I think everyone expects to travel for most big or nationals meets. I think it would just be a bit more fair to use an even geographic distribution to the extent possible (as I said). I think you probably just have more pools and more pool time out west. I'm not a huge fan of swimming outdoors myself. some girl: warm down is overrated. I'd love to have a meet in Boston.

RE: Clovis in 09??

some_girl — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:56:30 GMT

NE Masters puts on a lot of meets. Their SCY meet at Harvard seems to draw about 800 swimmers or so. Maybe it's big enough? Actually, I think the lack of Nationals in the Northeast is a big part of the reason NE SCYs is so big: for a lot of folks that is their season meet. (And Colonies SCYs is too close in time, otherwise, I think it would get more of those folks too. If it were much closer to Nationals I think it would be interesting to see if the turnout went up.) But I think New York is in the same boat as DC on pool space. Not enough warmup/warmdown space, even if there is room for 2 courses.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Midas — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:53:41 GMT

I think this is superficially appealing, but is it wise? This isn't an electoral college. If we have 2/3 of the meets in central and western locations, doesn't that just entrench the western "monopoly?" West coast swimmers will be more likely to attend nationals, go every year, enjoy the benefits of high level competition, etc. (When I look at my age group, west coast swimmers seem to dominate. If they have easier access to the fastest pools and fastest meets, that's somewhat of an advantage.) I think it makes more sense to move the meet around fairly evenly, to the extent possible. Otherwise, in addition to fostering the west coast monopoly, east coast swimmers will be penalized with a greater travel/expense burden than their west coast peers. Nothing can be perfectly fair, of course, but, since we pay USMS dues and shell out big bucks for our hobby, it would be nice to feel the love too! Well, if 2/3 are held in the western and central US, that also appears to mean in this instance that 2/3 are held in the eastern and central US... Here's the list from an earlier post breaking it down: East coast Ft Lauderdale 1998 LC Baltimore 2000 LC Rutgers 2003 LC Savannah 2004 LC Ft Lauderdale 2005 SC Coral Springs 2006 SC Central Indianapolis 1998 SC Minneapolis 1999 LC Indianaplois 2000 SC Cleveland 20002 LC Indianapolis 2004 SC The Woodlands 2007 LC Austin TX 2008 SC West Coast Santa Clara 1999 SC Santa Clara 2001 SC Hawaii 2002 SC Federal Way 2001 LC Tempe 2003 SC Mission Viejo 2005 Lc Federal Way 2007 SC Mt Hood 2008 LC I think Minnesota and Texas are each a push for east and west coasters (Texas may be a little closer for the west coasters while Minnesota a little closer for the east coasters, but both are in about the middle of the country.) Cleveland and Indy are much closer to the east coast than the west. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any northeast meets, but I have no idea why this is the case. Hopefully bids are not being ignored. It certainly appears that the east coast has received their fair share of the meets. I'm not sure if having most of the meets where most of the USMS members are located is strictly a superficially good thing either, but it's not really worth debating. There is no right answer to that question. I would say that the west coast dominance in your age group probably has very little to do with a possible national championship location bias and almost everything to do with the fact that there are just more west coast swimmers in USMS. As for the reason for the larger west coast participation in USMS, I bet it has to do with the fact that we swim outdoors year-round. Indoor pools are miserable compared to training under an open sky. Swimming in a heated pool on a cool, rainy day is actually kind of fun.

RE: Clovis in 09??

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:46:32 GMT

Maybe West Coast folks are more inclined to put out the effort than East Coast folks? Just a thought - not saying East Coasters are lazy or anything like that so don't go off on me. :whiteflag: Maybe WC just bids more often than EC - still haven't seen an answer that delineates bid history to any degree. I think if the EC swimmers want it on the EC more often, they're going to have to come up with the possibilities and just bid more. No need to duck, Jim! We aren't even discussing politics! lol I understand your point. I can't speak for non-DC areas particularly. Jeff Strahota explained the problem we have in the DC area because of population density issues and lack of warm up pools. U of Md is an outstanding facility. Maybe everyone can warm down in the showers. I doubt it's laziness. At least in DC, we have a tradition of hosting the vast percentage of Colonies Zones meets in at least the last 5 years or so. NE Masters puts on a lot of meets. Their SCY meet at Harvard seems to draw about 800 swimmers or so. Maybe it's big enough?

RE: Clovis in 09??

pwolf66 — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:34:12 GMT

RE: Clovis in 09??

Jim Clemmons — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:31:16 GMT

RE: Clovis in 09??

Doug Adamavich — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:25:53 GMT

Hijacking is an accepted norm. Most people read and post in the General Discussions section. Are you as bossy as that Smith guy? The purpose was to keep the various Nationals-related topics grouped. That will make it a bit easier to discuss IMHO but ultimately it does not matter to me. Just a thought and an action on my part, no "hijacking" intended :-)

RE: Clovis in 09??

pwolf66 — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:22:39 GMT

Are you as bossy as that Smith guy? Which one?

RE: Clovis in 09??

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:19:16 GMT

Hijacking is an accepted norm. Most people read and post in the General Discussions section. Are you as bossy as that Smith guy?

RE: Clovis in 09??

Doug Adamavich — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:16:31 GMT

RE: Clovis in 09??

The Fortress — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:08:00 GMT

It didn't look to me as if there is any significant west coast bias in terms of where meets are held. But if there is, it sort of makes sense since the west coast is where the majority of USMS swimmers are located. I think this is superficially appealing, but is it wise? This isn't an electoral college. If we have 2/3 of the meets in central and western locations, doesn't that just entrench the western "monopoly?" West coast swimmers will be more likely to attend nationals, go every year, enjoy the benefits of high level competition, etc. (When I look at my age group, west coast swimmers seem to dominate. If they have easier access to the fastest pools and fastest meets, that's somewhat of an advantage.) I think it makes more sense to move the meet around fairly evenly, to the extent possible. Otherwise, in addition to fostering the west coast monopoly, east coast swimmers will be penalized with a greater travel/expense burden than their west coast peers. Nothing can be perfectly fair, of course, but, since we pay USMS dues and shell out big bucks for our hobby, it would be nice to feel the love too!

RE: Clovis in 09??

Doug Adamavich — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 01:25:07 GMT

Oh, I also created a thread for 2009 SCY Nationals on the Nationals section of the forum.

RE: Clovis in 09??

Doug Adamavich — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 01:19:29 GMT

I created threads on both SCY and LCM Nationals for 2010. We should probably move our discussions regarding the LCM bids for this meet to that forum. The SCY 2010 one is a placeholder for now. Not much controvesy over a non-contested bid...right?