Best performances at USMS Nationals....

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:51:14 GMT

Paul Smith..... 22.6..... 50yd fly..... 48 years old. Public praise for Paul from you? (Does he owe you money?) And Julie...my wife and I may have only got you by a minute, but adjusting for age has to figure in there somewhere...what are we, cumulatively 15 years older than you?:bliss: (Just wanted an excuse to use this smiley.)

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Julie Roddin — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:16:35 GMT

Chris Stevenson wrote: Julie is going to have to step it up a notch next time or I'm going to have to find another girlfriend! :lmao: Like maybe Jill! :joker: LOL! Chris you only beat Jeff and I by 1 minute unless my math is wrong. A little less breaststroke from me next year and we'll win for sure. Although I shouldn't take all the blame for our loss, if Jeff was a real man he wouldn't have gotten beat by so many girls. If Mark trains more for next year's event then we all may be in trouble.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

pwolf66 — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:16:24 GMT

Does anyone know if you can hear the commentary on the the nationals DVDs being sold? That might tip the scales...! You can most definately hear Mark's witty repartee. While the video quality is average at best and depending on what lane you are in you may or may not have much screen time. I'm tempted to buy the 200 Free CD just to hear the commentary.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:41:38 GMT

Paul Smith..... 22.6..... 50yd fly..... 48 years old. That betters the age group record below him. My only consolation is that I am much better looking. John Smith

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

jroddin — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:31:42 GMT

Chris Stevenson wrote: I will content myself that my wife and I won the mythical "couples" award for best cumulative time, handily crushing youngsters Mark & Jill, and Jeff R & Julie O (in their defense, I'm pretty sure they were all still hung over). Julie is going to have to step it up a notch next time or I'm going to have to find another girlfriend! :lmao: Like maybe Jill! :joker:

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

mattson — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:53:12 GMT

From the USA Rulebook: "Both arms must be brought forward over the water and pulled back simultaneously". Of course, in all things, you must read the rule and enforce what the rule states. Note: it does not specify what portion of the arm must be above the water. Nor does it say exactly how far above the water it must be. So the only way to interpret this rule, AS WRITTEN, is that if any portion of each arm breaks the surface of the water, then it is a legal recovery. That would imply that you could do breaststroke during a butterfly race, if you had the over-the-water lunge. (The master's legacy rule takes care of the kicking.)

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:19:41 GMT

If the fellow in question chose to do his 200 fly in a 200 free race he would be home free.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

swimshark — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:45:01 GMT

You know you've been had when you hear Mark announce after you finish, "Don't believe anything they tell you I said during your race." I told some people near me that at least I don't ever have to hear the disappointing words as I finish of "finishing just outside the world/national record time".

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 01:59:39 GMT

Best performance in on-mike insults again goes to Mark Gill; The mouth of Masters Swimming. Only Mark would throw insults at a swimmer, as the swimmer is being wheeled off to the ambulance! :lolup: Man, I was in the warmup pool and totally missed this. Does anyone know if you can hear the commentary on the the nationals DVDs being sold? That might tip the scales...! You know you've been had when you hear Mark announce after you finish, "Don't believe anything they tell you I said during your race." I just wish Graham Johnston had beaten Mark in the 2-mile cable swim this summer, so I could ridicule him for it...it was close, and I think Graham would have done it if he hadn't swum the 1-mile race an hour earlier. Still, Mark had to wear a B70 to get the win. I will content myself that my wife and I won the mythical "couples" award for best cumulative time, handily crushing youngsters Mark & Jill, and Jeff R & Julie O (in their defense, I'm pretty sure they were all still hung over).

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Rob Copeland — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 12:56:19 GMT

Granted I didn't see the exact moment of the DQ, but I watched a lot of his swim and he looked to me to be really close to not getting his wrists out of the water.In butterfly “Both arms must be brought forward over the water and pulled back simultaneously.” Brought forward over the water has for many years been interpreted as the elbows need to recover over the water. Doug has been disqualified for this same infraction at nationals for years. The problem is that at many local meets, the stroke judges don’t make the call; which can lead to confusion.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Kurt Dickson — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:59:58 GMT

My son always gets DQ'd in butterfly but he is young and can be expected to learn. A guy that is 82 and repetitively gets deaked maybe should pick another stroke, petition for a rule change (an arm is an arm not a chunk of your wrist), or continue on the path to futility.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Allen Stark — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:27:22 GMT

Back to topic,Rick Colella-200BR-2:38.66(I had a great view of his feet.)

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:05:34 GMT

Is this in reference to Doug Strong? He probably did the best he could, but if you want to go ahead and insult him, I guess that's your choice too. You aren't required to follow every rule. You can choose to be DQ's just as easily as you can choose to follow the rules.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

swimshark — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:02:32 GMT

Elfie was one of the swim-throughs and it was a good idea since she loves the 400 IM. Elfie is a joy to watch.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 06:42:08 GMT

I'm with you there. You know, I find it curious how people like to follow every rule, even when the rule is flawed. In butterfly, if your arms aren't all the way out of the water you'll swim slower. There is no reasonable advantage to an alternative stroke pattern due to restrictions in range of motion, or limitations in age. Therefore, this rule should be grandfathered. Except that that defination is wrong. It is any part of the arm, which is defined as from slightly below the shoulder to the wrist.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

pwolf66 — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:22:00 GMT

Paul, I know the definition is correct. I pulled it directly from our rule book. Now my understanding of the interpretation may be wrong. I can’t seem to find the official interpretation of the rule. Can you point me to the source of “It is any part of the arm, which is defined as from slightly below the shoulder to the wrist.”??? Well, that's a problem. What is your arm? The commonly accepted definition (which is NOT written in any rule book that I know of) is any part of a human's upper extremity that contains the word 'arm'. So the upper arm, which starts at the shoulder and ends at the elbow works and the lower arm, which starts at the elbow and ends at the wrist works also. But in that respect you are right, there is not a clear definition of what your arm is in any swimming rule book. For the last 3 years of MCSL, YMCA and USA officiating it has been briefed to me (and I have briefed it) that as long as any part of each arm breaks the surface of the water, then it is a legal recovery and that the arm is defined as from just below the shoulder to just above the wrist. From the USA Rulebook: "Both arms must be brought forward over the water and pulled back simultaneously". Of course, in all things, you must read the rule and enforce what the rule states. Note: it does not specify what portion of the arm must be above the water. Nor does it say exactly how far above the water it must be. So the only way to interpret this rule, AS WRITTEN, is that if any portion of each arm breaks the surface of the water, then it is a legal recovery.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Rob Copeland — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:14:01 GMT

but if you want to go ahead and insult him, I guess that's your choice too.Good segue… Best performance in on-mike insults again goes to Mark Gill; The mouth of Masters Swimming. Only Mark would throw insults at a swimmer, as the swimmer is being wheeled off to the ambulance!

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Rob Copeland — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 03:43:06 GMT

Except that that defination is wrong. It is any part of the arm, which is defined as from slightly below the shoulder to the wrist.Paul, I know the definition is correct. I pulled it directly from our rule book. Now my understanding of the interpretation may be wrong. I can’t seem to find the official interpretation of the rule. Can you point me to the source of “It is any part of the arm, which is defined as from slightly below the shoulder to the wrist.”???

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

aquageek — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:50:25 GMT

I'm with you there. You know, I find it curious how people like to follow every rule, even when the rule is flawed. You aren't required to follow every rule. You can choose to be DQ's just as easily as you can choose to follow the rules.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

poolraat — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:22:56 GMT

In the officials' meeting before our meets we always have a discussion of the interpretation of this rule and to be consistant within our LSC, it is always emphasized that the top of the arm has to only be above the surface of the water. There is no requirement that the arm must be entirely out of the water. But like Paul said it must be the entire length of the arm from "slightly below the shoulder to the wrist". I have seen Doug swim the fly in several meets and as much as I admire him for attempting these longer events, I would have disqualified him each time.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

knelson — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:55:51 GMT

The wording could be a little better, but the intent is for the pull to always be backward and the recovery forward out of the water ("...recover over the water"). I believe Mr. Strong does part of his recovery underwater and that's illegal. It's not so much that he isn't getting his entire arm out of the water. That's my take, anyway. In any case, DQ or not, I've got nothing but respect for him for swimming the 200 fly.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

pwolf66 — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:48:56 GMT

In butterfly “Both arms must be brought forward over the water and pulled back simultaneously.” Brought forward over the water has for many years been interpreted as the elbows need to recover over the water. Doug has been disqualified for this same infraction at nationals for years. The problem is that at many local meets, the stroke judges don’t make the call; which can lead to confusion. Except that that defination is wrong. It is any part of the arm, which is defined as from slightly below the shoulder to the wrist.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:47:18 GMT

Kohei who ? This comes up over and over - I just don't get it. Some kid decides to sign up for Masters for one meet and sets a record and people get all excited. He is in the Ian Crocker age group - when he beats Crocker, he has the age-group record. Of course these are very subjective opinions - Jeff Erwin at the end of the age-group dropping a 16:39 in the mile; Paul Carter with his 57.23; + Laura Val and Pipes-Nelson are so good that records are always expected from them. Kohei swims and trains with us at Brophy. He tried to make the Japanese Olympic team and just barely missed it. In a few meets this summer, he would have qualified but did not swim as fast at trials. He has been at Brophy training for the past year or so along with a few other Japanese nationals. One of our masters coaches Takahisa Ide, has been training them.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:45:19 GMT

Ya, maybe you're a true rugby player. Just a thought. He is a true butterflyer. Seeing his free/fly difference that low made me realize that I am not a true butterflyer.

RE: Best performances at USMS Nationals....

Former Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:39:33 GMT

Hoch, He was actually fairly close to Crocker's best time. Half a second, maybe? I thought it was exciting because he didn't make the Olympics, but he decided to have a great meet this summer anyway.