End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:03:38 GMT

Rebecca Adlington (800 Fr) has one of the best text book EVF's I've seen to date. In any and every event, an Early Vertical Forearm sets your stroke up for speed. It doesn't matter what distance, what stroke, an EVF is critical for swimming speed and at one degree or another, every swimmer in the Olympics shows they have it. Call it a catch if you prefer but technically it means the same thing. Adlington's stroke is mechanically awesome. Timing for critical speed in each stroke has been show over and over again, - when one of the hands is in the power phase the other hand enters the water. The objective of every swimmer sprinter to distance is always the same, the maintenance of peak inertia. The greatest kick in the universe only slows the loss of inertia when one of the arms is not in the peak power phase. The variables of body type, strength, flexibility, endurance and others, will always come into play but maintenance of peak speed is a common one that must be shared by every swimmer. I believe the way Adlington swims is an style that I can teach and everyone else should as well (to sprinters and distance swimmers). Oddly, until I saw some footage of Becky underwater, I had a great deal of difficulty understanding what EVF really was. Not now! Cheers Tom.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:25:18 GMT

Oddly, until I saw some footage of Becky underwater, I had a great deal of difficulty understanding what EVF really was. Not now! Cheers Tom. Here's some great video's and pictures too. I show my swimmers these. Phelps and Thorpe At approximately 30sec, 48 sec, 1min, and more, you’ll see the hand enter from both Phelps and Thorpe when the opposite hand is in the EVF position and during the power phase. www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch Slow motion – You’ll see the forearm in an EVF position as the other hand enters. www.youtube.com/watch Grant Hackett – Great EVF and then the hand enters www.youtube.com/watch Jason Lezak – The most pronounced EVF of all the competitors who’s hand enters the water while the other is in the EVF position. www.youtube.com/watch Ziegler Holds off Laure Manaudou = Awesome looks at when one are is in the EVF position the other enters the water. www.youtube.com/watch A picture frame by frame comparison of Thorpe and Hackett www.svl.ch/.../ A group of friars were behind on their belfry payments, so they opened up a small florist shop to raise funds. Since everyone liked to buy flowers from the men of God, a rival florist across town thought the competition was unfair. He asked the good fathers to close down, but they would not. He went back and begged the friars to close. They ignored him. So the rival florist hired Hugh Mac Taggart, the roughest and most vicious thug in town to "persuade" them to close. Hugh beat up the friars and trashed their store, saying he'd be back if they didn't close up shop. Terrified, they did so, thereby proving that only Hugh can prevent florist friars.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

mattson — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 02:13:47 GMT

A comparison between two Olympic medalists is not that helpful, as there are a lot of other factors that could be responsible for the tiny time differences (aerobic capacity, foot size, fin-shaped head, etc.). I'm more interested in what all 8 finalists are doing in common (despite their stroke idiosyncrasies), that the 17th+ place swimmers are not doing.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:30:09 GMT

Your point is valid for a short race. That is why there is a much higher stroke rate in the 50. However, your argument doesn't take into account the energy used to maintain a rotary stroke/higher stroke rate. The front quadrant stroke is much more efficient, and in 100m or longer races pays off. Rebecca Adlington (800 Fr) has one of the best text book EVF's I've seen to date. In any and every event, an Early Vertical Forearm sets your stroke up for speed. It doesn't matter what distance, what stroke, an EVF is critical for swimming speed and at one degree or another, every swimmer in the Olympics shows they have it. Call it a catch if you prefer but technically it means the same thing. Adlington's stroke is mechanically awesome. Timing for critical speed in each stroke has been show over and over again, - when one of the hands is in the power phase the other hand enters the water. The objective of every swimmer sprinter to distance is always the same, the maintenance of peak inertia. The greatest kick in the universe only slows the loss of inertia when one of the arms is not in the peak power phase. The variables of body type, strength, flexibility, endurance and others, will always come into play but maintenance of peak speed is a common one that must be shared by every swimmer. I believe the way Adlington swims is an style that I can teach and everyone else should as well (to sprinters and distance swimmers).

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

taruky — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:20:25 GMT

I believe that their can be no other way to physically swim faster other than by timing your stroke where the opposing hand sets-up to enter the power phase of the stroke while the other is moving out of it. I don't think that's front quadrant swimming it's simply the way it must be. The best kick in the world can only reduce the loss of inertia and until someone's kick creates more power than their pull, than will never change. In the women's 1500 during the last World Games both the Gold and Silver winners showed one hand entering and setting up with an awesome EVF while the other hand was in and leaving the power phase. On the opposite extreme, the French swimmer Bernard overcame a poor but still present EVF by applying more drag force than his competitiors. Bernards example is not unique and merely shows that athleticism can overcome idiosycrcies or imperfect stroke mechanics. When you're tall and strong your appendages can create more drag force but I believe he could be even faster if he set up his stroke with a more efficient EVF. To answer your question- Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference? I believe that -- If catchup is opposite of mirror image than I believe mirror image or the attempt at achieving constant inertia by staying in the power phase as long and as often as possible - I'm a mirror image believer. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY --- AMEN BROTHERS!!! Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too. Your point is valid for a short race. That is why there is a much higher stroke rate in the 50. However, your argument doesn't take into account the energy used to maintain a rotary stroke/higher stroke rate. The front quadrant stroke is much more efficient, and in 100m or longer races pays off.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:15:04 GMT

I don't think so, we are rapidly approaching the point where we can get an accurate three dimensional model of a swimmer's stroke, when we get there we can close the loop and test our theories against empirical evidence instead of just arguing. I.e. we can start being scientific. The facilities already exist for this in a few places but the cost will start to come down very rapidly in the near future. That's an exciting prospect. I hope I'm around to try it out.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

taruky — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:47:09 GMT

I am sorry, I did not mean you are wrong and actually many of the things you say are pretty good. I am truly amazed how fast you have picked up a lot of stuff that has been said. It is good to question every ones theories. Tom has his thoughts and I do like what he says most of the time. No problem. I also appreciate a lot of what Tom says, heck, I bought the tech paddles and have seen his YouTube videos.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:43:01 GMT

I am sorry, I did not mean you are wrong and actually many of the things you say are pretty good. I am truly amazed how fast you have picked up a lot of stuff that has been said. It is good to question every ones theories. Tom has his thoughts and I do like what he says most of the time. I guess there's a hierarchy of opinions here, my apologies for offending the experts.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:36:21 GMT

Hydrodynamics will change drastically. Will we use gene therapy to change the physical body to make the swimmers body genetically better for speed. Improve the wingspan, grow bigger feet. The loop will change many times. Growth hormones will be given to super sized babies to make super dooper sized babies. I don't think so, we are rapidly approaching the point where we can get an accurate three dimensional model of a swimmer's stroke, when we get there we can close the loop and test our theories against empirical evidence instead of just arguing. I.e. we can start being scientific. The facilities already exist for this in a few places but the cost will start to come down very rapidly in the near future.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:07:06 GMT

It will be a never ending story. I don't think so, we are rapidly approaching the point where we can get an accurate three dimensional model of a swimmer's stroke, when we get there we can close the loop and test our theories against empirical evidence instead of just arguing. I.e. we can start being scientific. The facilities already exist for this in a few places but the cost will start to come down very rapidly in the near future.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:00:56 GMT

It will be a never ending story. :dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

taruky — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:11:55 GMT

What an expert you have become since your first post July 4th, 2008, 03:48 PM. Where did all of your expertise come from. I guess there's a hierarchy of opinions here, my apologies for offending the experts.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 05:04:50 GMT

What an expert you have become since your first post July 4th, 2008, 03:48 PM. Where did all of your expertise come from. Your point is valid for a short race. That is why there is a much higher stroke rate in the 50. However, your argument doesn't take into account the energy used to maintain a rotary stroke/higher stroke rate. The front quadrant stroke is much more efficient, and in 100m or longer races pays off.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

swimcat — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 01:39:54 GMT

:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

taruky — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 01:06:59 GMT

Rebecca Adlington (800 Fr) has one of the best text book EVF's I've seen to date. In any and every event, an Early Vertical Forearm sets your stroke up for speed. It doesn't matter what distance, what stroke, an EVF is critical for swimming speed and at one degree or another, every swimmer in the Olympics shows they have it. Call it a catch if you prefer but technically it means the same thing. Adlington's stroke is mechanically awesome. Timing for critical speed in each stroke has been show over and over again, - when one of the hands is in the power phase the other hand enters the water. The objective of every swimmer sprinter to distance is always the same, the maintenance of peak inertia. The greatest kick in the universe only slows the loss of inertia when one of the arms is not in the peak power phase. The variables of body type, strength, flexibility, endurance and others, will always come into play but maintenance of peak speed is a common one that must be shared by every swimmer. I believe the way Adlington swims is an style that I can teach and everyone else should as well (to sprinters and distance swimmers). I'm not arguing against the catch position you endorse. What I am saying is that a lot of swimmers have a longer glide, i.e. spend more time in an extended arm/ streamline position before pulling. In this scenario the loss of propulsion, as you describe it, is offset by better endurance in longer races. It's easy as pie to see. Compare Bernard and Lezak's underwater swims in the relay. Lezak had a much lower stroke rate, spent more time gliding, and had a lot left in the tank at the end.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:37:02 GMT

not at all. you can lift 25lbs 10x or you can lift 10lbs 25x....the same amount of work is being accomplished. in cycling, each must find his own comfortable gear. in a time trial, the rider who can push the largest gear fastest wins. The person who can push the 2nd largest gear even faster never wins?

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:09:53 GMT

dave, have you had a chance to watch sullivan yet? I would be curious to know what terry's thoughts are as well on his stroke. its pathetic that nbc only posted underwater video of the 4x 100 free relay. its really hard to see all the little stuff in the "live" broadcast archives. i imagine there will be some youtube stuff coming out in the near future. terry's blog: blog.totalimmersion.net/

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:57:32 GMT

Lezak used a catch up stroke his stroke helped him catch up to and pass benard Tom, it seems to me that there is a spectrum of stroke timing, on one end you have rotary or kayak timing where the catch occurs about the time the other arm finishes, at the other end you have something approaching the catch up drill, even though no one competes using the catch up drill timing. When you want to talk to someone about timing what terms do you use to distinguish placement on this spectrum? Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference? I believe that their can be no other way to physically swim faster other than by timing your stroke where the opposing hand sets-up to enter the power phase of the stroke while the other is moving out of it. I don't think that's front quadrant swimming it's simply the way it must be. The best kick in the world can only reduce the loss of inertia and until someone's kick creates more power than their pull, than will never change. In the women's 1500 during the last World Games both the Gold and Silver winners showed one hand entering and setting up with an awesome EVF while the other hand was in and leaving the power phase. On the opposite extreme, the French swimmer Bernard overcame a poor but still present EVF by applying more drag force than his competitiors. Bernards example is not unique and merely shows that athleticism can overcome idiosycrcies or imperfect stroke mechanics. When you're tall and strong your appendages can create more drag force but I believe he could be even faster if he set up his stroke with a more efficient EVF. To answer your question- Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference? I believe that -- If catchup is opposite of mirror image than I believe mirror image or the attempt at achieving constant inertia by staying in the power phase as long and as often as possible - I'm a mirror image believer. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY --- AMEN BROTHERS!!! Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

ViveBene — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:18:57 GMT

its pathetic that nbc only posted underwater video of the 4x 100 free relay. its really hard to see all the little stuff in the "live" broadcast archives. i imagine there will be some youtube stuff coming out in the near future. terry's blog: blog.totalimmersion.net/ I've seen several postings on YouTube; each lasts only a few hours, as it is removed for copyright violation. I did see an 8-minute video that was somewhat informative; one could see swimmers entering at each point in the relay, and the last 5 meters was shown from different perspectives, in slow motion, and in close-up of two hands reaching for the wall. I'd suggest keep looking every few hours on YouTube. Here today, gone tomorrow, back the next day.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:17:24 GMT

dave, have you had a chance to watch sullivan yet? I would be curious to know what terry's thoughts are as well on his stroke.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:09:24 GMT

The person who can push the 2nd largest gear even faster never wins? you're nit-picking. my yaris can do 80 mph in 4th gear or 60 in 5th gear. one of those would make my mechanic cringe.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:57:49 GMT

What are your thoughts on Sullivan's stroke then? i have to watch it again. can't seem to load the video at the moment.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:53:24 GMT

more of a conclusion about that race than universal...i would agree as one will never know if bernard was capable of swimming it any other way. give me two people swimming the same speed and i am typically more impressed by the one with a more relaxed stroke rate.....but hey, thats just me. What are your thoughts on Sullivan's stroke then?

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:49:40 GMT

My point stands, to take two swimmers in one particular race, particularly one where one swimmer is drafting off the other, and draw universal conclusions about stroke mechanics is totally unwarranted. I'll be looking forward to hearing a total reversal of the conclusion if Bernard beats Lezak in the 100 free. more of a conclusion about that race than universal...i would agree as one will never know if bernard was capable of swimming it any other way. give me two people swimming the same speed and i am typically more impressed by the one with a more relaxed stroke rate.....but hey, thats just me.

RE: End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch

Former Member — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:41:39 GMT

not a question of good and bad but rather bernard-good and lezak-gooder. if lezak would have spun his arms at the same rate as bernard, he would have sacrificed critical distance per stroke. My point stands, to take two swimmers in one particular race, particularly one where one swimmer is drafting off the other, and draw universal conclusions about stroke mechanics is totally unwarranted. I'll be looking forward to hearing a total reversal of the conclusion if Bernard beats Lezak in the 100 free.