Step it up coaches!

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:19:07 GMT

I do coach, one of my swimmers is swimming the English Channel in early September he lives in Belgium. I have not brought up since 10 am. George - I hope you are feeling much better. When you get back from Nationals, why don't you consider coaching?

RE: Step it up coaches!

pdjang — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:01:13 GMT

I'm starting to believe that on-deck stroke technique correction is over-rated. I don't understand how a coach can accurately see what motions are made in the water from the deck given that they are at an offset angle and heading. While an observant coach can see gross motor movements and relative body position, I believe that it is almost impossible for an on deck coach to discern fine motor movements which may be critical for champions. The reason for my belief is based on the principle of the index of refraction. This physics based principle states light rays change direction when they cross the interface from air to the material, an effect that is used in lenses and glasses. Secondly, light reflects partially from surfaces that have a refractive index different from that of their surroundings. (wikipedia). For an experiment and example of this principle, take a straight object (pencil) and insert it into a clear glass of water. The pencil will appear to bend. This distortion has to have an impact on what an on-deck coach perceives; if true, it is improbable that the on-deck observer can accurately infer propulsive (or non-propulsive) motions. Underwater examination may be the only accurate means of analyzing propulsive motions - which is unfortunately lacking (due either the availability of proper equipment or hydrophobic coaches) on a variety of levels (esp. masters swimming). On the other hand, correction of gross motor motions and body position may be sufficient to improve performance given enough repetition (miles make champions).

RE: Step it up coaches!

mctrusty — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:51:43 GMT

- I would make an attempt to catch a workout with Tiffany at Boulder Masters anytime she was on deck...highly technical, up on current training/drills. I like her workouts because she usually includes more IM work than other coaches. I'll have to pick her brain more often on technique.

RE: Step it up coaches!

mctrusty — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:34:04 GMT

Just some thoughts and a little :soapbox: from a veteran masters coach. Tonight I'm attending a mandatory coaches meeting, lead by our twenty something aquatics director. In the past year I've done CPR certification (hey nothing wrong with that), a mandatory safety meeting where I learned a code purple on the internal radio system is to have security escort out a irate member etc. All this in addition to the actual coaching. All by the way I put in 40 hours plus at the day job, and I would like to do a little swimming myself. On any given night I have former NCAA - D1swimmers to the beginning triatlete and everything in between. And many a night a potential member will come strolling onto the deck to “ask about joining the masters swimming program” Those new swimmers can be really enjoyable but they are a time suck. Many of the basics, the folks on this board would take for granted they don't know; “On the top” - “interval” - “10x100” - “yes the pool is 25 yards long so a 100 is four lengths of the pool” Most masters sessions are structured towards fitness, mid to long distance training as the that's what that majority of paying members (which usually include a substantial triathlete group) want. Those of you who are frequent competitors in 50's and 100's and attend national events are in the minority when looking at overall due paying team memberships. And those dues are important, they start going down and watch how quickly the aquatics director takes away a lane or two, kills a session or cans a coach. I have argued within our own program that what we really need to do is set expectations (be transparent) on what a masters workout is and isn't. In reality it is a structured workout program, like spin, step class. Stroke tips and one on one time is at best icing on the cake. Our team schedules regular swim clinics, pre-meet sessions etc., to compensate however those are actually lightly attended. My experience tells me, and to put it nicely, masters swimmers are training fee sensitive. Know they don't have a problem trying to buy a Blue Seventy or be the first to get there hands on a LZR, but an increase in training fees, to maybe put two coaches on deck, they cry bloody murder. How many of you are willing to pay for regular private coaching or go to something like Swimlabs? Many masters coaches are volunteers. How many masters coaches in the United States can do this as there full time job? That don't have income coming in from another source such as; another job, age group/collegiate coaching, a significant other, pension, trust fund, lotto winner etc. I'm guessing no more then 30 in the entire U.S. Hey Ken, I went to SwimLabs a couple of weeks ago and worked with Mike Mann. It was excellent for me. I've resolved to go there and check up on my strokes every month or two.

RE: Step it up coaches!

ViveBene — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:46:28 GMT

Well Paul, I have returned from our masters coaches meeting and we are planning to hire a substitute coach, $15 an hour, fill in once or twice a month, interested? :o Maybe that's the problem.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:35:59 GMT

PS; I actually coach as a volunteer PSS; there is money to be made, but it ain't going to happen without the right person leading the way... Well Paul, I have returned from our masters coaches meeting and we are planning to hire a substitute coach, $15 an hour, fill in once or twice a month, interested? :o

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:53:40 GMT

I paid $300 to swim with a masters club, that was for the first half of the season. I went to 2 workouts and that was it for me. They had a teen coach handling 4 lanes and the head coach handled 4 lanes. Printed workouts from some catalog. No stroke instruction. Needless to say I was not impressed. They did not return my money.

RE: Step it up coaches!

elise526 — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:21:15 GMT

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 08:26:25 GMT

RE: Step it up coaches!

Brian Stack — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 08:09:04 GMT

Brian...I'll come back as soon as you get Mandy to step it up and get back into masters competition! Hey, we were going to make that your job. She's a hard sell for sure, but she kicks a** in practice. She can make some of the big boys cry on a distance set. We could use the points, with Carlos leaving us for Miami.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Brian Stack — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 08:05:43 GMT

Brian...I'll come back as soon as you get Mandy to step it up and get back into masters competition! And by the way....speaking of good and not so good coaches I strongly encourage anyone who is in Indy or SF to avoid Mel & Scotty at ALL COSTS...they are very, very bad man!! By the way...I have found that even the triathletes who I have coached have in general come around to doing some of the drill and stroke work I assign...there was a lot of skepticism and I'm sure some coaches would give up on the "attitude" but I found that if I continued to explain what the "purpose" of each workout(s)/set(s) were they usually came around. I forgot Scotty Williams at the "O" Club, he'll put you through it! Great motivator. The triathletes just have to be convinced that if they learn how to do it right, it gets easier and their split will be faster!

RE: Step it up coaches!

Paul Smith — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:58:35 GMT

Paul, I'm not sure why the dearth of good coaches surprises you. As has been mentioned, we are often willing to shell out $500 dollars for a race suit but when the coach thinks of raising the rates $5 dollars a month, everyone calls foul. Would you coach, teach, etc. for the paltry sums offered up? The problem could be generalized to society as a whole. Step it up coaches? I say screw that...step it up human race. Kurt... my point is actually not that there are so few coaches..but rather that there are very good coaches out there and many are not putting the effort in with masters. As I explained I do understand this...we can be a pain in the ass...however if we (the clients) ask for more from them I think people would be surprised. PS; I actually coach as a volunteer PSS; there is money to be made, but it ain't going to happen without the right person leading the way...

RE: Step it up coaches!

Kurt Dickson — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:51:31 GMT

RE: Step it up coaches!

Paul Smith — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:50:07 GMT

RE: Step it up coaches!

Brian Stack — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:33:04 GMT

Ken, I understand yet on the other hand I have seen success stories that lead me to believe that given a "taste" of what it is like to have an outstanding coach/team masters swimmers will indeed pay more for the experience. I'll give a few examples: - Brophy Masters; Mark Rankin can manage a workout like few coaches I have ever seen. Even with 3 different groups and at times 50+ swimmers he manages the send off's, calls times, gives people a hard time for slacking (me) and most important he starts almost every workout with something as simple as an update on things like upcoming meets, acknowledges swimmers who just competed, talks about open water swims, they have monthly socials, on & on. - Utah Masters; great group...love Priscilla! -Nova; Michael does an outstanding job and it shows at meets when they ramp up. - I would make an attempt to catch a workout with Tiffany at Boulder Masters anytime she was on deck...highly technical, up on current training/drills. - Jerry at UCLA masters....I have no idea how he stays so motivated with all the workouts he manages - Although I have not worked out with Walnut Creek when Kerry is on deck I have trained there and its exceptional - Brian with the Manatee's who I no longer get to swim with but had some great workouts There are good coaches out there, there are marginal coaches out there....my concern is that good coaches often take masters for granted and that marginal coaches get hired in the first place. Thanks for the kind words Paul, if I had known you liked abuse during practice I would have thrown you in with Carlos F. (proud to say he's one of ours). I know some of the coaches you mention and have been fortunate to swim in some of their practices. I'd like to add that there are lots of great Masters Coaches out there. I've met many over my term as President of the Masters Acquatic Coaches Assn. from all corners of the country and some from out of it! Most are highly motivated, and working everyday to get better. I've met some of the un motivated types too, and my feeling is they should not be there. Many age group teams run their Masters programs as revenue enhancement to help defray the costs of their primary programs. I find that these are the programs who often put very young, barely trained coaches on deck, usually with a practice on a white board. Not a great environment for successful swimming. If these young coaches had a head coach who wanted to develop coaches he'd mentor these youngsters so they could be involved and productive. Our club seems to be very different from Ken's group, they're always asking for stroke help, or Open Water strategies, or new breaststroke drills. We do a Back to the Basics Clinic Series monthly on one stroke, with a limit of 12 sign ups. We did one this past Saturday and had 18 participants and two volunteer helpers from the team. I don't know how we got those other six participants, but we never cancel for lack of interest. Since you mentioned names, and George was looking for recommendations I though I'd give you my list of Great masters Coaches I have Swum With . . . Starting with Mike C from your list, he's awesome, everyone should do at least one Collins practice in a lifetime, you'll never be the same. You can often find Mike on deck at the USMS Convention! Gerry at UCLA is as good on deck as he is in the water. I'm really lucky 'cause I get to swim with Walnut Creek Masters every day so Kerry O' is my coach, so's Mike Heany and Deb Santos Kerry's right hands. My list continues with Emmett Hines in Houston (H2oustonswims.org) you don't even need to be in his practices, you can feel his dedication to coaching just by reading his articles, check the web site. Bob Bruce at Central Oregon Masters learned at the feet of Doc Councilman, need I say more. There's Mel Goldstein at Indy, Stu Marvin at Ft Lauderdale, Ed Gendreau and Dave Grilli in New Hampshire, and many many more. Find a good coach, if you don't have one in your program, make some noise about it. If you have a coach, help them out by being a model swimmer. Listen, practice with a purpose, and share your goals with your coach. Remember it's a two way street. And if all else fails, become a Coach! BTW Smith, all is forgiven, if you should find yourself in Oakland you're welcome to drop in again, I'll share my breaststroke drills with ya! :woot:

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:42:56 GMT

I've been through several coaches now, who are also the age-group coach, and they seem to be hesitant to give feedback to adults but much more comfortable giving it to the kids. I keep asking...and it is always helpful when the do give it. Is this hesitancy with adults typical?

RE: Step it up coaches!

Paul Smith — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 05:15:15 GMT

RE: Step it up coaches!

gobears — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 04:39:46 GMT

I have argued within our own program that what we really need to do is set expectations (be transparent) on what a masters workout is and isn't. In reality it is a structured workout program, like spin, step class. Stroke tips and one on one time is at best icing on the cake. Our team schedules regular swim clinics, pre-meet sessions etc., to compensate however those are actually lightly attended. This kind of program is what they've set up at my Y. It really is a "lap swim class" as opposed to a master's group. And I haven't seen that there are that many true "masters teams" out there. I live in what should be one of the more swimming-friendly states and I can think of only two teams that seem to really be active "masters swim teams" as opposed to swimming fitness classes. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to find anything in a less swimming-friendly state.

RE: Step it up coaches!

knelson — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:18:16 GMT

He went on to tell me that 99% of the time he attempted to "coach" masters swimmers they either A) ignored him or B) listened to him and then didn't try so he basically gave up. Obviously the first one is a tough one for a coach. However, I wonder a little about the second one. Since Czene was such a great swimmer he might have expecting too much. He's probably the kind of swimmer who can get technique advice from a coach and immediately incorporate it into his swimming. This isn't so easy for most people and is probably a key element separating great swimmers from not so great swimmers.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:38:25 GMT

I only have a bit of coaching experience but it was enough to make me appreciate the challenges of coaching a group of swimmers of varying skill levels, varying conditioning, and varying goals and motivation levels. It's easy to expect the coach to come in and supply all the positive energy and motivation and get everyone over their tiring stressful day or early morning blahs but I've observed that the coaches usually respond well to enthusiasm and positive feedback from their swimmers as well, it's not a one way street. If you have no goals for yourself or haven't told your coach what your goals are and asked for help achieving them it is hard for them to help you. I think ideally the coach/swimmer relationship is a partnership where you both work together on mutually agreed on goals. If a coach gives you a tip that helps you be sure to let them know it helped and that your enthused about the improvement, that way they are much more likely to give you the next tip. I think many swimmers often neglect the little things that would make coaching them more rewarding.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 13:43:21 GMT

Coaching can make a huge difference. But I find much more disappointing the poor quality of age group coaches. This is more important than Masters - since as Paul says Masters isn't real swimming. Some of the age group coaches in my city - and with so-called clubs of excellence - have been just ridiculous. They coast on the reputation of the club and rely on competition between swimmers.

RE: Step it up coaches!

gobears — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:45:57 GMT

Do you think this has to do with the fact that most coaches who do the master's groups are typically not the highest level coaches? Our local USA team has a "masters" program but it's coached by one of the age group coaches who,by then, is at the end of a long day of coaching. I'm sure he and the head coach consider his masters group of secondary importance. He pretty much writes a practice on the board and then sits there answering questions when necessary. And, this team has a reputation for not being great at technique work in the first place so the masters team sure isn't going to get much. Having coached a lap swim class at the YMCA, I find that most of my swimmers want stroke instruction but there are so many different levels of swimmer with such different goals it's difficult to give as much as you'd like to each swimmer. We only have 2-3 out of around 30 regulars that actually want to "train" to compete. The rest just want a good aerobic work-out or to de-stress from their day. I'll admit that, having been coached in high-school and college by some truly great coaches, I'm somewhat skeptical about taking many pointers I get from some of the more novice coaches running masters programs. I've also been guilty of just wanting to get in and get my work-out done. I wonder just how many true competitive masters teams there are around the U.S. By that I mean masters teams that are coached by someone who is actually really focused on that group and regularly training that group for competition. I'm guessing there aren't all that many...

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:27:42 GMT

great thread. the club i swim with has quite a variety of swimmers with different goals. most will "modify" the coaches workout to their liking; some will only swim freestyle, some will never lose the pull buoy. my observation is that swimmers who were the more succcessful collegiate of the group are also the least likely to take any technique instruction even if the years have left them looking like Quasimodo in the pool.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:22:08 GMT

Gee, George, how many different masters teams have you practiced with in the US? Non I have only met Canadian so called Master Coaches. From what I have heard they do have some good ones in the USA. As I say I am going to meet some good Coaches in Gresham in a couple of weeks. I cannot wait.

RE: Step it up coaches!

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:21:05 GMT

I cannot wait to meet some good coaches and thanks for pointing me in the right direction. If you are ever in the area, swim with Tom Healey who coaches Auburn Masters. I doubt you will be disappointed.