Do we have it (training) all wrong?

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:26:05 GMT

I thought it was inadvisable to do high intensity work every practice? If I've learned one thing from this forum, there aren't any rules.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Paul Smith — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:08:11 GMT

I wonder if you could keep the 3 hard days and replace two of the easy days with off days? That would still give you a day off to recover between hard days. So much depends on the athletes ability to recover and that is what I think should dictate this kind of stuff...problem is I think so many masters swimmers are out there in the "dead zone" (I referenced from Chris Carmichaels article in the current issue of Bicycling magazine) and misread their poor performance and fatigue as being out of shape vs. overtrained.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Big AL — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:51:51 GMT

If you don't stress your body in different ways, you won't see increases in fitness and decreases in body fat. Thanks for ruining it for me. :oldman:

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:36:37 GMT

I think shock factor is good. I did it intra workout (SCY)last night after doing 10x 50 4 @ :50 and 6 @ :55 did 100 EZ and then went into 5 x 100 @ 2:00. I did 4 on 2:00 holding a good quality stroke at 1:30. The last 100 I cut the interval off at 1:50 and went in 1:25, without really trying--I was surprised to drop time. Maybe I should have used 1:50 all the way through. My point being I think the energy system hadn't had time to slip back to "comfortable" and so went a higher pace on adrenalin. So shocking the system can be good immediately and over the recovery/adapting period. Coaching is good but hard to find. I took our masters group the other night, and everyone enjoyed the stroke correction/suggestions.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Allen Stark — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:38:52 GMT

I don't have coached practices,but I have coaching in that I go to clinics and have coaches and people I consider expert look at my stroke every chance I get. If you want to get faster you need to stress the anaerobic systems as well as the aerobic.Also stressing means doing more and/or faster.Additionally I agree you need to be in good enough shape to do adequate work on technique.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

rhess54321 — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:17:34 GMT

I really hate to say it, but I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one. Now, Laura, this implies that you usually don't like to agree with Paul. Come on! He's not a bad guy! -a few off the wall comments at times but all in all a guy I would enjoy being married to (well...if I wasn't a guy myself). Maybe you guys have one of those Carville-Matlin type relationships?? Anyway, I agree with what you say on the treadmill thing. And to get back on track with the thread, I just might come on board for the "experiment". -thing is I would have to get used to the increased yardage, let alone the increased quality:weightlifter:

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:34:12 GMT

In general, he has you going 3 easy days and 3 hard days a week. I would guess that if you only had time to train 4 days a week, you would go 2 hard and 2 easy. I wonder if you could keep the 3 hard days and replace two of the easy days with off days? That would still give you a day off to recover between hard days.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

elise526 — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 07:38:27 GMT

I wonder if you could keep the 3 hard days and replace two of the easy days with off days? That would still give you a day off to recover between hard days. I would think so, but since swimming is so technique driven, I think there are days that it may be best to work technique at 60%. If one is limited in how many workouts though, my guess would be that 3 hard days with a day off rest between each would be best.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

elise526 — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 03:32:35 GMT

I'm reading a book right now by Roy Benson called The Runner's Coach . It is aimed at training foks in distances of 800 meters to the 5k which is equivalent to the 200 to the 1500 in swimming. What I like is that he divides the season into four training phases to allow the body to make "physiological adaptations" - endurance training, stamina, economy, and speed. Even in the endurance phase, on the hard days he has you doing "aerobic speed work." These efforts are capped at 80% effort. When you move up to phase II, stamina, you go to longer 85% efforts. Phase III, economy, on the hard days, you do things like 12 x 400 meter runs at 90-95% effort with a 200 meter recovery jog between each 400. In the the last phase, speed, he has you doing 100% efforts that are capped at 30 seconds. An example might be 4 x 150M, 6 x 100M, then 8 x 50M runs. In general, he has you going 3 easy days and 3 hard days a week. I would guess that if you only had time to train 4 days a week, you would go 2 hard and 2 easy. The easy days are all at 60% while the hard days are just HARD! I like the idea in swimming because you can go hard for one practice and then use the next one just to recover. I think particularly for masters, this would be best to allow a full day to recover from a hard day of going all-out. Seems like then recovery days could be drills aimed at working on technique.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:10:23 GMT

I've spent a little time trying to determine why some people aren't interested in doing what it takes to improve and some of those people say they want to enjoy their time in the pool rather than subject themselves to the pain/discomfort associated with swimming really fast. I am not a member of this group, I want to improve. I do admit however that my technique is so poor that I have tended to concentrate more on improving technique than improving conditioning and pain tolerance. Anyway, I'm getting off topic, it is just a question I find interesting. Back on topic, I would sign up for Leonard's training program in second!

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:30:20 GMT

I really hate to say it, but I'm going to have to agree with Paul on this one. Timm, I, too, want to encourage anyone and everyone to choose the treadmill over the couch. However, I think that a main reason that people give up their quest for fitness, is that they don't see results. If you're trodding along without ever increasing your heart rate or effort level, you aren't going to get much out of it. (Isn't the definition of insanity, "doing the same thing the same way over and over and expecting a different result"?). If you don't stress your body in different ways, you won't see increases in fitness and decreases in body fat. The body has an amazing way to adapt to stressors, and once it adapts, you need to change your routine to keep progress moving forward.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

ddunbar — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:20:19 GMT

There are good coaches, great coaches, some that are fellow swimmers that are willing to take the responsibility of posting the workout, and then there are those on crack. I would rather limp along self directed that every have another coach that is unwilling to post the work out, or does not work with those that are focusing on specific events and strokes. I will spend enough time in purgatory swimming backstroke and will never see the need to do more than an IM series of back.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

pwolf66 — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:59:15 GMT

Folks, I discussed this in the getting stronger thread. It's all about gradually increase eustress (GOOD stressors) on the body, be that with running a little faster and/or longer each day, lifting a little more weight, swimming tighter and/or faster intervals, we need to continually increase the load. If the goal is to just to be able to do X, then great, eventually your body will become superb at doing X with the least possible work. But if after doing X for months (years), you then want to do X+Y, your body will fight you. So why not keep increasing the load and progressing?

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 07:01:18 GMT

I propose that it is impossible to perform a quality workout without having an experienced coach (college or Trials/ Olympic background) correct you throughout the entire workout. I only sort of agree with this. It's awesome to have a good eye watching you swim and giving you the right focus points and drills. I assume it is, anyway, because I've never really been coached that way. I've always been coached as part of a team, so corrections were rare and they usually seemed like guesses. "I think you might be spinning, maybe slow the stroke rate?" Swimming by yourself can work if you go more by how things feel than by how they look. If you know what a good swim feels like, you can alter your workout to try to capture that feeling. For me, it's like "That wasn't quite it, it needs more X. Drill/set/equipment Y gives me X sometimes. I'll try Y."

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Paul Smith — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:41:43 GMT

We have a serious problem with obesity in our country today, and I give credit to anyone who does something to try to combat it. Sure, walking on a treadmill while reading/watching tv for 30 min isn't the quickest way to shed some pounds, but it is better than sitting on the couch. I'd hate to discourage someone like that, for fear they may stop entirely. I guess I'd consider myself a fitness swimmer, since I don't compete. I pretty much just go with the flow at workouts, whatever the coach says so I don't have to move to another lane. I'll do speed sets when they're assigned, but I really don't see why I need it. I enjoy swimming, and do other things to help my overall fitness (like lifting weights, core work, and running). When I'm in the pool, I usually like cranking out as many yards/meters as I can, in the limited time I have. Mr. Nelson...my point is that to many people are training with the "all or nothing" mindset...I'm suggesting people think outside the box and change things up on a frequent basis....especially those who don't understand the training zones and the fact that quality work is important. Timm...if its obestity your concerned about those people would be better served doing 30 minutes of resistance training vs. 30-60 minutes of low level obesity which would have more impact on weight loss. And the reality is even before doing ANY workouts diet needs to be addressed. Also, with regard to your question of "needing" quality/speed work in the pool...if you want to maintain the same swimming speed in practice and not make jumps in your ability to swim faster times on faster intervals...but rather to stagnate or regress than the "bang out as many yards as possible" strategy if fine. All the other things you do (weights/running) are fine for general fitness but if you want to specifically get faster in running/swimming you have to train faster in those sports just as if you want to get stringer in the weight room you'll need to lift harder and change your routine on a regular basis.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:36:59 GMT

Swim Atlanta "busts it out" so to speak for the last 30 minutes of every practice regardless of whether you are in the mid distance, distance, fly (stroke), or IM lane. I thought it was inadvisable to do high intensity work every practice?

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

The Fortress — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:34:30 GMT

I only sort of agree with this. It's awesome to have a good eye watching you swim and giving you the right focus points and drills. I assume it is, anyway, because I've never really been coached that way. I've always been coached as part of a team, so corrections were rare and they usually seemed like guesses. "I think you might be spinning, maybe slow the stroke rate?" Swimming by yourself can work if you go more by how things feel than by how they look. If you know what a good swim feels like, you can alter your workout to try to capture that feeling. For me, it's like "That wasn't quite it, it needs more X. Drill/set/equipment Y gives me X sometimes. I'll try Y." Some things you know you're doing wrong and can attempt to self-correct and possibly succeed. Other fine points, you need a coach or educated observer, I agree. I've had several people point out things I'm doing wrong in fly that I never really realized, for example. Kirk and Paul: Good point on quality applying to distance. I've got some distance geeks on my team that definitely are in zones 4-5 on some sets or parts of sets. They're animals. I dunno about the snorkel, Paul. I know you and others love it. I've tried it a few times, can't get the hang of it and feel like I'm suffocating. Maybe this fall when I don't have many meets.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:32:14 GMT

By the same token I think there's an assumption that to bang out max yardage means you're swimming everything at aerobic pace. Swim Atlanta "busts it out" so to speak for the last 30 minutes of every practice regardless of whether you are in the mid distance, distance, fly (stroke), or IM lane.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

knelson — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 05:35:06 GMT

Bodies adapt when you keep the same workload and never move out of zone 1-2, quality work changes the energy systems used and forces the body to change/develop. And I'm sure there are people who do stay at levels 1-2 for entire workouts, but there are also plenty of people who are doing lots of yardage AND mixing up the energy zones. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Paul Smith — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:55:11 GMT

By the same token I think there's an assumption that to bang out max yardage means you're swimming everything at aerobic pace. Bodies adapt when you keep the same workload and never move out of zone 1-2, quality work changes the energy systems used and forces the body to change/develop. I look at swimmers who do longer distance base aerobic work the same as that person who goes to the gym 6 days a week and reads a book while sitting on a bike or walking on the treadmill. Even fitness swimmers need quality speed work.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Paul Smith — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:50:12 GMT

The snorkel is at the bottom of my to do list. I've tried it, but don't like it. Can't breathe. Leslie give it another chance. Hand's down its the single best piece of equipment I use for technique work. I also use it with fins for long kick sets (kicking 6 x 6).

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

knelson — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:26:04 GMT

Also I found it very interesting that although I've brought it up several times so many people here still equate "speed" work with "sprinting". ...easy speed is a crucial element for everyone and just baning out max yardage every workout and avoiding speed work (IMO) is a mistake if you want to improve. By the same token I think there's an assumption that to bang out max yardage means you're swimming everything at aerobic pace.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:10:22 GMT

So, I felt I was performing "quality" but not according to my coach - and she was right b/c I could make the corrections and I saw/ felt a difference. If Tiger Woods always has a coach (and he has being playing golf since he was 4), I figure most masters could use a swim coach to keep an eye on them, at least every now and again. It is easy to get into bad habits and reinforce them by swimming uncorrected.

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

Former Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 13:26:30 GMT

How do you define "quality?" I'm thinking it can't be 100% true since there are many good self-coached masters swimmers. I agree in that there are a lot of good self-coached masters swimmers out there. But how many *greats* are out there? I may be wrong, but let's say I qualify as a "good" swimmer. Well, after today's practice and being shown all the errors and such that I make, my thoughts were, "What a mess!" So, I felt I was performing "quality" but not according to my coach - and she was right b/c I could make the corrections and I saw/ felt a difference. I've also had a world record holder point out lots of errors that I make throughout practices. So, I'm not swimming quality to him. You are right in that it's all relative. For me, I feel that a good way to look at it is that when you are feeling like you've gotten to a decent level, get some additional/ new feedback if possible and then you'll realize you can hold yourself to an even higher standard. When I think "quality," I think of Paul Smith as he does bring that term up quite a bit. So, I think of someone who is performing skills (again, not even thinking about speed or distance yet) during practice at an ex-NCAA Div I level or a masters World Record holder level. Now that's some quality. And it's :rant3::rant3: challenging to swim that way! And let me clarify, I'm still not there yet. Leslie, this quote of yours stood out for me: I'm well aware that my breaststroke is stuck in the gutter without some big time assistance. First, I'm in the same boat with my back AND ***. :laugh2: But here's where it gets interesting. Take my (our) beloved fly - something that I think is pretty good. Well, turns out there are TONS of specific things I need to continue to fix. Woa! :eek: Anyway, what I thought was quality was not. I think that's what one of my coaches was referring to when he said I had a "limited swimming background."

RE: Do we have it (training) all wrong?

elise526 — Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:29:20 GMT

Gosh, I'd give anything to have a coached practice! I coach a small group of folks once a week, but other than myself, the closest coached practice is 1.5 hours away and takes place at 5 am in the morning. I love swimming but not enough to drive 3 hours roundtrip during the early hours of the morning. Not only is it great to have a coach to watch your strokes, but it is also great to have one to push you. I am so lazy and I know no coach in his right mind would have me doing what I did today - 300 warm-up 4 x 100 dolphin kick (no fins) on 2 min, hold under 1 min.,30 sec. (the colon key on my computer is broken) 4 x 50 rt arm/lt arm fly on 1 minute 100 easy End of workout. Isn't that pitiful?