Crap, someone tested positive...

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:15:12 GMT

Well, if that WAS the case, then I would think the first test, from a sample collected around the 1st of July would have been positive, not the 2nd sample collected around the 4th of July. The negative-positive-negative aspect of this is a little disturbing. Not impossible nor even improbable but just disturbing. There is nothing strange at all about the sequence of -ve, +ve, -ve tests. The detection window for Clenbuterol is approx 4 days. There were more than 4 days between tests 1 and 3. It is absolutely possible that she took a dose after test 1, and it had cleared in time for test 3, but not in time for test 2.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:40:00 GMT

The NYTimes reports that Gymnast Hamm withdraws from the Olympic Team. www.nytimes.com/.../29hamm.html What amazes me is that is that the US Gymnastics Organization 1) will replace him (!) with one of three (!) alternates. "One of the three alternates – Alexander Artemev, Raj Bhavsar and David Durante – will now become an Olympic team member, pending decision by the men’s gymnastics selection committee. " While the circumstances are different, why doesn't US Swimming name alternates? Clearly the selection procedures for the US Olympic Swimming Team need to be reformed! There has been a lot of traffic on the Hardy/Kirk/Jackson issue, but can we translate this energy into a positive action that will impact future Olympic swimming teams? Philipp Well even Morgan Hamm (Paul's twin brother) is under scrutiny for these upcoming olympics because he tested positive for a substance. This substance however, i forget at the moment is like cortisone and is not illegal if he is receiving therapy for whatever joint he is having the injection for...but he was not. I think he's gonna clear and be able to compete because it really seems like it was an oversight between his doctors and him but, still...that would be such a blow to the Us gymnast teams...losing Paul and Morgan right before the Olympics.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:17:28 GMT

Perhaps someone familiar with the various asthma meds can check what the database has to say about them?

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

aquageek — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:28:11 GMT

(Just for the Smiths, I did a search on their drug of choice. Results here:) www.usantidoping.org/.../status.aspx Now that's funny, even in Costa Rica.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:50:00 GMT

This is also from the USA Swimming publication I mentioned in the previous post: Why should we be concerned about taking supplements or recommending them to our swimmers? Despite the efforts of the FDA to regulate the supplement industry, there have been far too many cases of product contamination, many of which are affecting our sport and our athletes’ ability to feel comfortable with their decisions. Below are just a handful of examples. --Nearly 20% of over-the-counter food supplements found to contain Nandrolone (a prohibited substance); No label warnings. The Times, September 20, 2001 --Ginseng products from a local health food store contain marker compounds in amounts different from label; Significant product-to-product variability. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 73:1101-1106, 2001 --Unusual or unidentifiable ingredients in supplements advertised in bodybuilding and health magazines. Sports Medicine --Two “mental enhancers” contain caffeine and ephedrine; neither is clearly declared on the labelor declared at all. International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism 11:258-263, 2001 --Researchers detect testosterone and various forms of androstenedione and 19-norandrostenedion/diol in Chrysin, Tribulus Terrestris and Guarana. Deutsche Zeitschrift fur Sportmedezin 51:378-382, 2000 --Norwegian weightlifter tests positive for Nandrolone 2 weeks before the Sydney Olympics and suspended for 6 months; Tests showed the supplement contained substances not listed on the label. USA Today - June 18, 2001 --French sprinter tests positive at World Championships; Told French media his food supplement did not indicate it contained the banned substance nandrolone. "Naturally, nandrolone wasn't mentioned on the wrapper," he said. "I realized I might be lacking in magnesium and iron. I was trying to make up for this shortage." CNN SI.com - August 29, 2001

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:42:47 GMT

There is a TON of information on the USA Swimming web site about "dietary supplements". This is one good publication: Dietary Supplements A Comprehensive Guide for Swim Coaches www.usaswimming.org/.../Dietary Supplements Guide 05 Dec 15.pdf Check out the "Yellow-Orange-Red" chart on Page 9. And the inteview with Kicker Vencill on Page 10. USA Swimming also has a Supplements database: www.usaswimming.org/.../DesktopDefault.aspx (or www.usaswimming.org >> Coaches >> Nutrition >> Dietary Supplements) They also make this statement: www.usaswimming.org/.../DesktopDefault.aspx Take at Your Own Risk Substances that fall under the category of "Take at Your Own Risk" include supplements and herbal products. Because these substances are not regulated by the FDA and may contain substances not identified on the list of ingredients, they are considered to be "Take at Your Own Risk". If an athlete tests positive for a prohibited substance consumed in a supplement, the athlete will be subject to sanctions. Athletes are responsible for what they choose to consume, and must be aware that the consumption of any substance that is included in this category places them at risk of a positive drug test. Please call the USADA Drug Reference Line at 1.800.233.0393 prior to purchasing any product. And the USADA has an online drug reference database where you can put in a drug name and it will tell you whether it is banned for athletes: www.usantidoping.org/.../ (Just for the Smiths, I did a search on their drug of choice. Results here:) www.usantidoping.org/.../status.aspx

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

knelson — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:40:37 GMT

While the circumstances are different, why doesn't US Swimming name alternates? I would say the primary reason is they don't really have to. If someone withdraws or is forced to withdraw there are enough people already on the team to fill the spots vacated by the withdrawing athlete. The gymnastics team only has six athletes and I believe the team event requires all six to compete.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

pdjang — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:32:38 GMT

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:25:15 GMT

Stillhere, Dead on target. Couldn't agree more. John Smith

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:48:42 GMT

No Olympics For U.S. Swimmer video.google.com/videoplay

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:51:17 GMT

It probably means that she was near the threshold to trigger a positive result. Exactly. She was taking clen at full dose before the meet, and miscaculated when she had to stop taking it.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

pwolf66 — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 06:13:05 GMT

Exactly. She was taking clen at full dose before the meet, and miscaculated when she had to stop taking it. Well, if that WAS the case, then I would think the first test, from a sample collected around the 1st of July would have been positive, not the 2nd sample collected around the 4th of July. The negative-positive-negative aspect of this is a little disturbing. Not impossible nor even improbable but just disturbing.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 05:58:40 GMT

For all the talk that clenbuterol is useless for swimming, blabh, blah, blah, so Jessica must have taken by accident. Well, read this article... grg51.typepad.com/.../ Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator, not approved for use in the US. Abusers of the drug claim that it can reduce fat, as well as enhance muscle. As reported in Swim News, other swimmers tested positive for the drug: Xiong Guomin (CHN), tested positive for clenbuterol (a Beta-2 agonist) in an out-of-competition test on March 8, 1999, and was banned for two years in 1999. The Chinese Swimming Associated imposed a ban of one year on his coach, Xu Huiqin, who featured in the news broken by SwimNews this week. Wei Wang (CHN) tested positive for clenbuterol (Beta-2 agonist) in an out-of-competition test on the same day as Xiong Guomin and was banned for two years. The Chinese Swimming Associated imposed a ban of one year on his coach, Cheng Zhi and extended the swimmer's ban to three years. Ying Shan (CHN) tested positive for clenbuterol in a Chinese Swimming Assoication doping control on January 31, 2002.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 05:20:04 GMT

I'm still giving her the benefit of doubt. The negative-positive-negative results are strange ... It probably means that she was near the threshold to trigger a positive result. They set the threshold fairly high enough to guard against too many false positives and to be able to make a good court case (beyond a reasonable doubt, and all that). This is also the reason they also need a positive result from the B sample. A negative result does not mean the absence of all traces of PEDs in the sample. Think about testing blood alcohol levels: just because one isn't above the legal intoxication limit doesn't mean the person didn't have any drinks. I assume all the proper analytical protocols were followed (if they weren't, I don't think we would have gotten to this point), so there is no question in my mind that she had the PED in her system. How it got there -- accidental, intentional, with the coach's blessing, whatever -- is another story and maybe isn't relevant anyway.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

FlyQueen — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 04:20:03 GMT

I'm still giving her the benefit of doubt. The negative-positive-negative results are strange ...

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:05:54 GMT

The rules are the rules--and the testing is for ALL----you fail----you are dirty---I know people who know her well--and they say no way---YET, she tested + which makes her a doper! We have set very serious standards and when these standards are exceeded then the person tested is OUT! Frankly, I think her coach is involved and has a very poor history with people under his guidance that testied +. That adds creditable certainty to this test. I believe she did PED and knew she did it--and like the cycle guys---now claims, "Oh no, I am clean, I had no knowledge of this!" I say BS and nonsense! Guilty as charged--- Next!

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:23:06 GMT

From the New York Daily News: www.nydailynews.com/.../2008-07-26_swimmer_jessica_hardy_claims_doping_inno.html Excerpt: ...Laboratories accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, like the UCLA Olympic lab where Hardy's samples were apparently tested, have black-and-white criteria for positive and negative tests. Even abnormal samples must meet the strict criteria for a "positive" reading. Technicians are trained to think like lawyers when they read the tests, because they may just end up facing Jacobs down the line. On the other hand, samples that pass as clean but raise the suspicions of the scientists can trigger more targeted testing. The laboratories, which only see a number on the test tube, can suggest that sport authorities collect out-of-competition tests from the donor. And if they see something weird on one specific aspect of the test, they can go back to stored samples and take a closer look: In other words, "low positive" means positive because there are wide margins of error built into most testing protocols. That is the case for two of the most commonly discussed blood profiles in anti-doping science, hematocrit percentages (which often reflect endurance) and testosterone/epitestosterone ratios (which indicate steroid use). Just last week, an expose by the BBC explored how WADA-accredited laboratories had cleared a startling number of Olympic-sport athletes for competition even though their samples had suspicious scores on the test for erythropoietin, or EPO - a notorious banned endurance-booster. Reviewing lab documents for the BBC, prominent Danish doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard demonstrated that many athletes were probably using small doses of EPO - microdosing - gaining athletic benefit while technically beating the EPO test. Hardy told CBS on Friday that she was in "complete shock" when anti-doping officials called her with the results of her July 4 test. "In my heart I know I'm 100 percent clean," she said, claiming to have never heard of Clenbuterol. That may be true, but the WADA Code, now 10 years old, was built on a "strict liability" philosophy, wherein athletes are responsible for every molecule in their system, even if they have never heard ot it. Last year, the Code was tweaked to allow a tiny measure of flexibility in enforcement when an athlete can prove he or she took something inadvertently. WADA seemed to want to offer a little lenience in cases where second-hand marijuana and innocent cough medications put careers at risk (and cost WADA huge legal fees). But the new language hasn't been tested in a trial setting, and history indictates that WADA's definition of lenience is closer to reducing ban from two years to 18 months, rather than green-lighting a trip to the Olympics....

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

elise526 — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:31:54 GMT

Has anyone heard anything about Lara Jackson's reaction to the matter involving Jessica? Is she going to petition for a place on the team?

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 06:50:16 GMT

Has anyone heard anything about Lara Jackson's reaction to the matter involving Jessica? Is she going to petition for a place on the team? SwimmingWorld online has an interview with her on the Mornings Swim Show from Friday. Doesn't sound like she is going to do anything.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:45:03 GMT

Um, yes. Or at least a 5 year stay in a nice prison. I have ZERO tollerance for that specific behavoir. Most of us probably know somebody convicted of DUI. Do we tell them screw you and I hope your life is ruined forever? Last time I knew one, I just told him he was stupid. He agreed.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:35:53 GMT

The nice thing is we can change our hair color anytime depending on the mood that we are in. Wonder if I could use the excuse of the hair dye kit if I tested positive for a banned substance? Who's performance are you trying to enhance! They've got a pill for that! i'm sure you're lovely how you are ;) Besides an old man once advised his.grandson: "Johnny, Marry a Redhead; they don't change the colour of their hair! Never trust a woman who changes the colour of her hair!" Geek, I know you did, at least that's consistent.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:22:32 GMT

In the "Why do they do it?" vein I recall seeing several news articles about the high rate of cheating in academics, so a lack of rational evaluation of consequences doesn't seem to be confined to athletes.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:19:28 GMT

Any decision to take drugs is calculated. In her decision regarding PED's it would be. Thoguh it could be calculated as "nobody is going to find out" that's where the dumb, cocky, naivete comes in. Blondes are evil, FACT. Brunettes are vindictive, FACT. Redheds are fiery, FACT. Hatemail to: SwimStud, c/o USMS forums.... ;) I'm joking ladies...just figure thread could use a little levity. Now you can villify me....

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:14:30 GMT

Stud - where you've gone off the tracks with your assertions is saying she's a dumb, naive 21 year old. In order for her to obtain the level that she's currently at she has probably been at the elite level since at least age 13 and probably in the pool since many years before that. She also went to school on a swimming scholarship, no small feat there. She has known for at least a half decade not to do drugs and yet with all that knowledge she has decided to do so. The point is she is not dumb nor naive. If all this plays out that she is a doper she has done a very calculated, educated thing strictly for her advantage. The fact that she only tested positive once leads me to believe her program was well run (almost) and designed for both performance and non-detection. She can't be dumb or naive but I don't think adults her age are necessarily known for their judgment either. I see and hear of many college age adults using phenomenally bad judgment with respect to cheating. I'm not excusing her or feeling sorry for her; I am glad she got caught and hope she is penalized to the fullest because of the grief she's caused in a myriad of arenas - but I'm not ready to vilify her either.

RE: Crap, someone tested positive...

Former Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:07:22 GMT

Is a drug like clenbuterol manufactured in the same plant as supplements? Stud, my life is centered around swimming (and running) because those are the sports of choice in the Fort house. Its not hero worship; its practices and meets -- they're rather time consuming. The forum would be dull without posts like Gull's. Fort, I apologised for how that appeared it was not worded to offend those who centre around swimming, you can beat me on the toes with your MF at Zones in retribution. You said hero first though, I know you're not praying to the altar with candles but yeah kids do look up to them, but I don't. I sympathise with your explaining it, but then it's a great lesson for why it's not worth it. It will catch up with you.