Yet another thread about the suits...

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:35:13 GMT

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:51:43 GMT

Greg Earhart at collegeswimming.com just posted a column that raises a troubling point about the new suits: collegeswimming.com/.../ What do you think? Hi Knelson This tech suit issue just keeps coming up over and over like a bad case of heart burn. 15 to 20 years ago, if you needed a swim suit (-IE- a pair of briefs), all you did was run down to Macys and pick up one for $12 and that was it. College and high school athletic departments could buy them wholesale for $9 each. Back then, the suit was just a minor issue and no one paid any attention to the brand of suit the swimmers wore. However today, the suit has become the "whole show and the monkey too" promulgated by the suit manufacturers who are taking advantage of swimming events for "brand recognition", "product placement", and other forms of "infomercializing". I (and many others) have strongly suggested that FINA "Tivo" back to when swimming was an athletic art of sheer simplicity instead of what it is today with the hi-tech suits and who can -and cannot afford them. That would end this controversy in a jiffy. My :2cents: Dolphin 2

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

The Fortress — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:50:14 GMT

The LZR also uses neoprene. The TYR Tracer Rise is coated with polyurethane according to TYR's website. Yeah, I don't think the B70 is faster than the LZR or TYR. I haven't quizzed a lot of people yet, but there still seems to be a LZR preference. It's not the end of the world if college swimmers have to compete in Pros or whatever until prices come down. As Wookiee notes, they're good athletes and will do well either way. So, yeah, what Geek said: bunk.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

knelson — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:47:37 GMT

I hope reality hits people that it's the athetes doing well in the suits. I just don't believe these new suits really give people that much of an advantage(exeception...Blue seventy since it has neoprene in the material) The LZR also uses neoprene. The TYR Tracer Rise is coated with polyurethane according to TYR's website.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

elise526 — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:30:02 GMT

True as well. Swimming is starting to become more like doing triathlons - you have to shell out a bunch of money just to keep up. I think I'll go buy a racing wheel because I can get more mileage out of it than a racing suit. :mooning:

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

aquageek — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:25:20 GMT

That's true, but until recently these meet suits were not that expensive, and by expensive I mean actually making a serious impact on a program's budget. True as well.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

knelson — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:22:16 GMT

Swimmers have always had meet suits as far back as I can remember. That's true, but until recently these meet suits were not that expensive, and by expensive I mean actually making a serious impact on a program's budget.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

aquageek — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:58:46 GMT

15 to 20 years ago, if you needed a swim suit (-IE- a pair of briefs), all you did was run down to Macys and pick up one for $12 and that was it. College and high school athletic departments could buy them wholesale for $9 each. Actually, couldn't be further from the truth. Tech suits came along before 15 years ago. You have previously stated you have never been a competitive swimmer so your assertions here are not fact nor experienced based. Swimmers have always had meet suits as far back as I can remember.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

aquageek — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:44:14 GMT

What do you think? Bunk.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:43:31 GMT

Good point. I've wondered if some Speedo flunkie has trolled this thread and just marveled at all the free pub they get. If they haven't they've missed a great market segment: Yesteryears fading stars clutching to their former glory by shelling out a mortgage payment to go .001 faster, and look 30lbs thinner! OK humour aside, I think they would have noticed. Many masters are good earners with the $ to spend on a recreation whether it's golf, bowling tennis or swimming. Why not get some money away from Joe/Josephine's iron and wood collection and make him/her spend it on a suit?

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:15:50 GMT

Even if it were neoprene - no big deal. Neoprene is a synthetic rubber. It is used to make fabrics waterproof (like inflatable boats). When used in wetsuits it is "foamed" so it traps air and creates thermal insulation (the primary purpose of a wetsuit). A by-product, not always desirable, is flotation. On the profit issue. I bet Speedo's out the door manufacturing costs are not close to the retail price. High end sporting goods (tennis, golf, etc.) are commonly marked up 100% at retail. The LZR is new so Speedo probably is capitalizing on the publicity and may also be motivated to recover R&D costs. NASA ain't free. I don't think the comparison to an iPhone is appropriate. It's true cost is far higher because AT&T subsidizes it (as they do with all phones). It is also mass produced in an overseas factory, priced to sell in 7 figure quantities. Apple hopes to sell 10M iPhones this year. I happen to believe (with no proof) that the profit in a $550 suit must be significant. But if the B70 and Tracer are equivalent at $150 less, many people will buy the others. I can afford a LZR but won't buy one. I might buy a B70 next spring.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:15:14 GMT

You have no idea how much profit or loss Speedo is making on these products. I would venture right now they are running a huge loss as they are giving many away and advertising like mad and you can't buy one retail, for the most part. I think it's a loss leader for them. Notice all the publicity around the LZR. Speedo is getting their brand associated with high performance and technical excellence.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:00:54 GMT

I see no reason an Average Joe swimmer can't buy one if they wish. I agree, especially if you consider the amount of time we invest in the sport (both in the pool and on this forum). An Average Joe may spend several hundred dollars on a single golf club.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

gobears — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:40:07 GMT

15 to 20 years ago, if you needed a swim suit (-IE- a pair of briefs), all you did was run down to Macys and pick up one for $12 and that was it. College and high school athletic departments could buy them wholesale for $9 each. Back then, the suit was just a minor issue and no one paid any attention to the brand of suit the swimmers wore. ??? Really? In college ('84-'88) we wore nylon suits for practice and special paper suits for meets. Exclusively Speedo and provided for us. That was over 20 years ago. In high-school we wore Finals lycra team suits for meets and nylon training suits for practice ('80-'84). My USS team suit (nylon for practice and special lycra for meets) was Arena. They came out with some kind of special rubber type suit I wore to one CIF meet my Junior year of high-school. That was 25 years ago. Lycra suits came out when I was swimming summer-league at about age 11 or 12. I never once went to Macy's to get one. We went to the sporting goods store to choose from the 2-3 major brands. Wearing a special kind of suit for meets has been a common practice in the swimming world for awhile now...

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:32:57 GMT

People keep saying neoprene. The Blue Seventy Nero Comp is a lycra suit coated with Yamamoto SCS, a slippery rubber-like substance. But it isn't neoprene. That coating appears to be widely used in competition wetsuits. Google and you shall see. I don't think the LZR uses neoprene either. Ok, I was wrong. The information I was looking at was referring to the PointZero suit. So, I screwed the pouch on this arguement. Here is one question for the blueseventy fans...are all their waterskins legal for pool use or just the Nero Comp?

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:31:19 GMT

The LZR sells for $550, but how much does it really cost to actually make one of these hyped-up tech suits? When you can buy a sophisticated electronic device such as (an iPod or an iPhone) for at lot less than the price of an LZR, it's quite obvious that Speedo is making a HUGE profit off these suits. I've seen the inside of a major U.S. garment factory (American Apparel Inc. in downtown Los Angeles) and an LZR couldn't cost more than $15 to make in an automated factory. At $550 retail, they are being marked up by a factor of 36.66. :doh: Who is the parent company of Speedo? They've got a bigger mark up on their product than the oil companies (that people are always accused of "exploiting capitalism"). Since this tech suit craze has taken off, I'm thinking of buying stock in the company!!! :banana: Dolphin 2

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:17:37 GMT

Kirk, I think you may have misread the articles. From the one's I read, they used neoprene as an example of "non-woven" material that maybe used in suits with the new definiton of fabric. Polyurethane is mentioned in the LZR several times but not neoprene. People keep saying neoprene. The Blue Seventy Nero Comp is a lycra suit coated with Yamamoto SCS, a slippery rubber-like substance. But it isn't neoprene. That coating appears to be widely used in competition wetsuits. Google and you shall see. I don't think the LZR uses neoprene either.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:14:34 GMT

The advantage they give is really to the suit manufacturers who now can take credit for the swimmer's success by claiming that he/she won a Gold Medal while wearing their suit. I remember when pro athletes (such as swimmer Mark Spitz) got their mugs pictured on the Cheerios and Wheaties boxes and they could take credit for their success as being the "Breakfast Of Champions". As big a pain-in-the-behind as this suit technology thing has become, I've got to admit that it's turned out to be one of the most clever marketing gimmicks of all time and it's making the suit companies big $$$. :applaud: The bad thing is that there are a lot of your Average Joe swimmers who are burning through their budget to buy one of these hyper-expensive suits. :shakeshead: Dolphin 2 I'm quite sure that when they announce medal winners in Beijing they will say "Michael Phelps, USA" not "Michael Phelps and Speedo." Because all the swimmers will have these suits the achievement is still credited to the athlete - as it should be.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:57:30 GMT

The advantage they give is really to the suit manufacturers who now can take credit for the swimmer's success by claiming that he/she won a Gold Medal while wearing their suit. Dolphin 2 Ever see the swim suit ads in any tri/swimming magazine? Companies have been doing this for years, not a recent development.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:55:44 GMT

The LZR also uses neoprene. The TYR Tracer Rise is coated with polyurethane according to TYR's website. Kirk, I think you may have misread the articles. From the one's I read, they used neoprene as an example of "non-woven" material that maybe used in suits with the new definiton of fabric. Polyurethane is mentioned in the LZR several times but not neoprene.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:49:03 GMT

I hope reality hits people that it's the athetes doing well in the suits. I just don't believe these new suits really give people that much of an advantage(exeception...Blue seventy since it has neoprene in the material) I think they give people a bigger mental advantage which is worth more than any suit. The advantage they give is really to the suit manufacturers who now can take credit for the swimmer's success by claiming that he/she won a Gold Medal while wearing their suit. I remember when pro athletes (such as swimmer Mark Spitz) got their mugs pictured on the Cheerios and Wheaties boxes and they could take credit for their success as being the "Breakfast Of Champions". As big a pain-in-the-behind as this suit technology thing has become, I've got to admit that it's turned out to be one of the most clever marketing gimmicks of all time and it's making the suit companies big $$$. :applaud: The bad thing is that there are a lot of your Average Joe swimmers who are burning through their budget to buy one of these hyper-expensive suits. :shakeshead: Dolphin 2

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:43:24 GMT

As one other comment suggested, why not put an asterisk next to all the WRs set in tech suits to indicate that the swimmer was in fact "mechanically dopped"? :dedhorse: Dolphin 2 Then why don't we put an asterisk by all tour de france winners everytime they made a new bike. Why not put one next to all baseball records each time they raise or lower the pitching mound or change bats. Why not put one next to all track and field records each time they make a better running shoe?

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:23:45 GMT

Actually, couldn't be further from the truth. Tech suits came along before 15 years ago. You have previously stated you have never been a competitive swimmer so your assertions here are not fact nor experienced based. Swimmers have always had meet suits as far back as I can remember. Hey Aquageek Your memory must be affected by amnesia. The so called "Meet Suits" were nothing more than commercial off the shelf racing briefs that were sold at all sports stores. As one other comment suggested, why not put an asterisk next to all the WRs set in tech suits to indicate that the swimmer was in fact "mechanically dopped"? :dedhorse: Dolphin 2

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

aquageek — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:20:26 GMT

I think it's a loss leader for them. Notice all the publicity around the LZR. Speedo is getting their brand associated with high performance and technical excellence. Good point. I've wondered if some Speedo flunkie has trolled this thread and just marveled at all the free pub they get.

RE: Yet another thread about the suits...

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:03:55 GMT

The LZR also uses neoprene. The TYR Tracer Rise is coated with polyurethane according to TYR's website. Where is this documented? I haven't been able to find it anywhere.