Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:28:31 GMT

I think they are illegal as per the rules - but there is no testing to detect them. I'll admit I didn't look it up. The only occurrences of drug or drugs in the USMS rule book are: 102.14.2 Advertising—Products involving tobacco, alcohol or pharmaceuticals containing drugs banned under IOC or FINA rules may not be advertised, but the advertiser’s name only may be used. Offenders may be barred from competition until they comply with this rule. and 305.7.6 Assistance During the Race A Feeding is permissible, but use of alcohol or illegal drugs is forbidden.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:14:18 GMT

I think they are illegal as per the rules - but there is no testing to detect them. I'll admit I didn't look it up. Then it may as well be legal....c'mon, we all suspect someone within USMS must be doing it... ..anyway steroids without training efficiently and agressively enough won't do anything except shring your testicles adn give you a "Strahan Gap," right Geek?

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:09:49 GMT

As for PEDs, my understanding is that they are legal under USMS rules, am I wrong? I think they are illegal as per the rules - but there is no testing to detect them. I'll admit I didn't look it up.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:02:42 GMT

Why not let everyone do what suits them and not worry about what others are doing, whether that is wearing a technical suit or not wearing a technical suit? Agreed: I'm not a purist, I drink accelerade and would take creatine if I felt interested enough, but I am not.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:00:17 GMT

Lindsay would you pay $550 to drop your time 2 seconds on a hundred. I will save you money - train harder, improve your technique. If I wanted to drop 2 seconds on a hundred by using better equipment I would just put on my fins, I already have a pair so it wouldn't cost me anything (I only spent $40 on them and they have lasted a few years now). I will allow that I enjoy swimming with fins or a pull buoy so if others get similar enjoyment swimming with a technical suit then more power to them.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:20:02 GMT

Lindsay would you pay $550 to drop your time 2 seconds on a hundred. I will save you money - train harder, improve your technique.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:26:11 GMT

Hate to be brief. Wait til you see me in Gresham in August. It takes me a few minutes to pry myself into my new size 34 Speedo briefs. Chuckie thought my size 36 suit was too exposing.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

The Fortress — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:13:33 GMT

When I say "buying" a time I am referring to a comparison between the same swimmer with and without a suit, if the suit makes the swimmer faster then they have "bought" a time improvement. No? No, I don't agree. Wearing a legal suit is not buying time. It's racing. "Loco mcstupid" -- that is outstanding verbiage!

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

aquageek — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 07:05:11 GMT

I think the notions that you are buying a victory, there's some moral problem with tech suits or trying to define best are ludicrous. Defining "best" - give me a break. If you want to achieve your maximum potential you do the things necessary to do that, whether it be switch teams, train differently or invest in the technology that enables you to swim your BEST. I'm not getting into the nuances of best, that's loco mcstupid. I also don't buy this total bunk that "purists" don't endorse tech advancements in the sport. If you claim to be a purist then you know that the most pure and truthful thing about sports is that they change over time, improvements and advancements are made. I think anyone who calls themself a purist and then fails to recognized the fluid nature of sports is probably more likely termed a foolist. The purist crowd also seems to selectively choose what items they find pure, generally the items that they don't want to buy I always find.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:15:31 GMT

Swimming in a technical suit and using PEDs are not even remotely comparable. One is legal and one isn't. Wearing a technical suit and "buying" a time are likewise not remotely comparable. Where did you get that idea exactly, from Dolphin2? Leslie, I'm not sure we disagree, I have no problem with you wearing a suit, I don't consider it cheating, I may have qualms about the rules but unless the rules are changed I'm not going to make any judgments. In this thread however Jazz gave his reasons for not using the latest suits, and I think his reasons are reasonable and valid. As for PEDs, my understanding is that they are legal under USMS rules, am I wrong? When I say "buying" a time I am referring to a comparison between the same swimmer with and without a suit, if the suit makes the swimmer faster then they have "bought" a time improvement. No?

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:04:42 GMT

You have illustrated my point exactly. If your idea of "best" is defined by USMS rules then that is perfectly valid. If someone else defines best according to some other set of rules that is also valid. If one doesn't get any cognitive dissonance from the assertion that a person becomes a better swimmer when they don a technical suit then the thread has run its course. Using the USMS rules provides one definition of best, the fact that not everyone believes that you become a better swimmer by using better equipment is the basis for some people objecting to the way the rules are evolving. The rules are arbitrary and one can disagree about whether a rule is good enough. If USMS decided that fins were legal in races then most people would have little difficulty understanding an argument that a swimmer with fins wasn't necessarily "a better swimmer" than another without. It's only a matter of degree.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:33:10 GMT

The word "best" requires a definition to be meaningful. Ha! How about this: best: adjective, superl. of good with better as compar. 1.of the highest quality, excellence, or standing 2. in swimming: the fastest. the swimmer who touches the wall first while competing within the established rules; ain't nobody faster; the individual who traversed an aquatic distance in the shortest time One of the great things about swimming is that it's among the least subjective sports. Let's not introduce any relativism to swimming. But if we are, I'd like everyone to know that I am the BEST SWIMMER! And by "best," I mean the fastest male, premature-balding, hairy-shouldered, wore-a-legskin, had-too-many-beers-night-before, 50yd backstroker. Medal, please!

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:32:58 GMT

You are over intellectualizing. The word "best" in masters swimming is already clearly defined as the person with the fastest time competing with a legal stroke and legal suit in your age group (FINA rules). Perhaps. But Jazz and Mazzy, and many others, have defined their goals in terms of time goals not ranking goals, and they have place an additional constraint on how they want to achieve their goal. In that context "buying" a time drop doesn't meet their objectives. How one achieves one's goals can legitimately be as important as the goal itself. The FINA rules are just one of many possible sets of rules to operate under. USMS has no doping rules but not many people would critically say that someone is failing to achieve their potential and be the best that they can be if they choose not to use performance enhancing drugs. :roids: As you have pointed out there are many many trade-offs one can make, swimming without a technical suit is no less valid than spending less than six hours per day training or not hiring a personal trainer. Why not let everyone do what suits them and not worry about what others are doing, whether that is wearing a technical suit or not wearing a technical suit?

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:09:55 GMT

So, there's an entirely opposite side of this argument. If you take the sport seriously, train as hard as you can given life's constraints and want to be your best, you should buy the best equipment out there to maximize your potential. Not doing so is simply cheating yourself and squandering your hard work. The word "best" requires a definition to be meaningful. One can separate best swimmer from best swimmer/suit combination. Am I a "better" swimmer if I put fins on? One can aim to be the fastest possible under FINA/USMS rules, or aim to be the fastest they can be under some other set of constraints, whether that means a monofin and air tank for monofin racing or racing without a technical suit. I don't see any moral high ground, just different choices.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:08:13 GMT

I thought Mirko was pretty clear, he has set a goal for himself and set his own "rules" for attaining that goal. He didn't say that anyone else had to abide by his "rules". In his case he wants to attain his performance goal without the aid of a bodysuit, seems fair enough to me.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

The Fortress — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:04:46 GMT

Ha! How about this: best: adjective, superl. of good with better as compar. 1.of the highest quality, excellence, or standing 2. in swimming: the fastest. the swimmer who touches the wall first while competing within the established rules; ain't nobody faster; the individual who traversed an aquatic distance in the shortest time One of the great things about swimming is that it's among the least subjective sports. Let's not introduce any relativism to swimming. But if we are, I'd like everyone to know that I am the BEST SWIMMER! And by "best," I mean the fastest male, premature-balding, hairy-shouldered, wore-a-legskin, had-too-many-beers-night-before, 50yd backstroker. Medal, please! Awesome! Lindsay: First off, as someone who works out and does speed work with fins regularly, I am uniquely qualified to tell you that NO WAY ARE TECHNICAL SUITS EQUIVALENT TO FINS. FINS ARE WAY, WAY FASTER. I can hardly believe you'd compare them. In fact, I encourage people with fins. Save your shoulders and works out, dudes! Swimming in a technical suit and using PEDs are not even remotely comparable. One is legal and one isn't. Wearing a technical suit and "buying" a time are likewise not remotely comparable. Where did you get that idea exactly, from Dolphin2? I'm all for people setting personal goals, have stated as much many times, and count myself in that category. But that doesn't mean you have to be sans technical suit. I haven't worn a tank in a meet since 2006. Wear one or not, excellent. Race yourself as the highest goal, excellent. Masters must define themselves and not let others define them. That's why, if I choose to wear a technical suit, I won't let others define me as "illegal," "cheating" or whatever. I'm just pursuing what I think is fun and challenging and doable. If others choose differently, so be it and I will definitely cheer for them to do their PBs. I have never understood the "I'm morally superior, I'm swimming in a brief or tank" faction.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:09:03 GMT

just like for you the bodysuit is for me = cheating to myself, it'a a shortcut, just like steroids. Last time I checked (just now!) bodysuits don't cause ball cancer. The steroid analogy doesn't hold in this case. P.S. I use a cap to protect my hairs from clorine and because it's mandatory in all the pools in my country. I use the googles because my eyes don't like the clorine at all and I don't want to became blind due at swimming. Okay, I'll try: I use a body suit because I'm too coarse and hairy to shave without getting skin infections. Or, my religion requires me to cover up...but if you use the suit for reasons other than your beliefs or your personal health, you're a cheat.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

The Fortress — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:55:27 GMT

The word "best" requires a definition to be meaningful. One can separate best swimmer from best swimmer/suit combination. You are over intellectualizing. The word "best" in masters swimming is already clearly defined as the person with the fastest time competing with a legal stroke and legal suit in your age group (FINA rules). And separating the two categories described above in masters? Nonsensical. There are no two such divisions in the sport. Although I'd love to compete in the best swimmer/best SDK competition in my age group -- even without fins and a monofin -- or in the best swimmer/least yardage competition. But, hey, those aren't categories yet. Why are people so hung up on suits when so many other training things or lifestyle choices make such a difference?!

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:49:50 GMT

Were there any swimmers setting national or world records recently that were NOT wearing technical suits? There I said it ... I had to. Perhaps the majority of more talented swimmers affirmatively choose to wear technical suits. The only ones I can conceivably think of that might accomplish this without fancy suits are the younger masters swimmers recently out of college. And of course SwimmieAvsFan always has to rag on me because she's a feel freak. I agree. if everyone has one provided to them if they wish, then the field is level and fair. Soon it will be with rebreathers.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:48:59 GMT

I see the point. There are enough variables as it is, such as whether you are tapered, comparing meters and yards, and let's say for the sake of discussion that you attended a meet where the outdoor air temperature was 110 degrees. I started wearing the FS2 for meets and that is just one more variable, comparing pre-FS2 and post-FS2 times. So I don't really have any idea how well I'm swimming now. It's frustrating, but I still plan to keep the FS2 for meets!

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:48:50 GMT

So are competitors at the Trials are cheaters or just masters swimmers? Geek, I think my Monday officiating is getting rained out. I always let the one hand touches go. But the blatant scissor kicks? I've said that I agree with Jazz, I swim for myself, and if I use a bodysuit it'll lower my time so I'm cheating myself, it's a shortcut to reach my goal. i don't want that my money will buy my little dream, I want my passion, my hard works carry me to reach it. The bodysuit for olimpians is legal just like for master, and swimmers that compete in any race at any level is better that use it because anybody else will do it. Nothing more nothing else.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

aquageek — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:48:21 GMT

The word "best" requires a definition to be meaningful. OK, the US is the best, has the best swimmers wearing the best suits. That should suffice for best.

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:43:01 GMT

Were there any swimmers setting national or world records recently that were NOT wearing technical suits? There I said it ... I had to. Perhaps the majority of more talented swimmers affirmatively choose to wear technical suits. The only ones I can conceivably think of that might accomplish this are the younger masters swimmers recently out of college. And of course SwimmieAvsFan always has to rag on me because she's a feel freak. I don't think so. However, Phelps and Lochte both went under WR pace in the 400IM last night with a measly legskin suit. I've heard a lot about the benefits of the bodysuits-acting as a corset- but how much of that WR pace can be attributed to the legskins last night?

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:42:11 GMT

Maybe this is where I differ from other masters swimmers, but I swim for myself. I compare my performance to what I've done before and what I know I can do. I don't seriously compare my performance to other people, although I'm always down for a good gridge. I swim because I love to race. I love winning and hate losing. I still have fun either way though, because I love racing people. Because of that, I do seriously compare my performance to other people. Especially if they're in lanes next to me...in bodysuits. I experience swimming as the relationship of my body to the water. When I shave down for a meet, I'm not disrupting that relationship. Me and water might need a divorce, because I am cool with "disrupting" this relationship. I'm pretty hairy. I shaved just once as a masters swimmer (recently); it was a bloodbath during and in the weeks after. Clients stared at my bare arms and my excessive scratching. I worked hard to have disposable income to spend on my few extracurriculars. I have no problem buying a fancy suit (on sale). I experience swimming as moving as quickly through water as possible (while minding the rules).

RE: Why I swim and why I don't want a bodysuit

Former Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:29:59 GMT

I really think that people who have some moral objection to tech suits probably just can't afford them, bottom line. There, I said it, someone had to. That's fair. Provided you accept that two identically talented swimmers are still identically talented even if one wears the funny gimp outfit. One just has more money to throw on an artificial aid... it didn't make them a better swimmer. Just the one with a record gained by a suit. There I said it...I had to. It's a bit like when Arnie said about steroid use, he felt the top body builders would still have been the winners without the use of steroids...