Some quick numbers on the new suits

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:52:43 GMT

Peirsol was wearing a Nike suit in the 200 back final, one of the suits Nike athletes were ditching because of a supposed disadvantage.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:01:22 GMT

But it occurs to me that perhaps it was the FS-Pro that was really a leap forward and the LZR was just an incremental improvement. It seems very plausible that this might be the case with the legskins, most of the reasons cited for the improvement with the LZR seem to apply more to the full body version.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:49:43 GMT

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:48:57 GMT

I still want proof positive. Are LZRs better? Is Ying Fa faster then LZR? Do some swimmers use Illegal potions? Did Clemens cheat on his wife? Did Clemens use anabolic steroids? Is Wonder Bra coming out with the Swim Slim Girdle?

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Paul Smith — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:15:02 GMT

I remember when you posted that. I did my experiment at a USA-S meet, so no 50s, and I used the FSII not the FS-Pro. I didn't have the same improvement as you -- my times mostly got slower with the FSII, actually -- but I'm willing to repeat the experiment with a different suit. It probably won't be until next spring, however. It may well depend on the swimmer and the event. I remember Paul wondering if the B70 was better for bigger swimmers. (In a way that seems pretty unfair...Paul already has an advantage in reach over most people and now he might get to negate one of the downsides of being big...). I also remember cursing my body suit at the end of the 200 fly, when I felt like I couldn't get enough air...! By the way, 22 is a pretty smoking 50 fly time :) Chris that was the point I was making in my earlier post...that I had tried each generation of the suits up to the BS (but no LZR or TYR yet). The difference in material between an FS Pro and a B70 is night and day...the B70 and TYR suits look, feel and smell like wetsuits...and unlike the older fabrics of the Speedo fastskin/Pro's they do not absorb water...another major difference. George, when you go try a few come back and chat...

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:00:30 GMT

Phelps was wearing an FSII jammer in that race. By golly, you're right. Boy he is really stinking it up this year if he went slower with LZR legskins. :) I smiled at his comment after the race that taking out the race in 53+ was being "too conservative." Geez, Mike, grow a pair would you? :) (I was impressed enough when he took out the 400IM in a 55.)

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:52:45 GMT

Has Phelps worn the full-body LZR yet during Trials? So far I've only seen him wear the legs. I've heard a lot of talk about the corsetting effect of the full-body LZR, so maybe Phelps isn't getting this by only wearing the legs. Pretty sure he wore it in the 200 free.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

The Fortress — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:18:13 GMT

Fort, EVERYONE knows why your pull was stronger...!:weightlifter: Thinking some more about this...last year at World Champs, Phelps had a remarkable drop in the 200 fly (1:53.7 to 1:52.0) wearing the FS-Pro. Nowadays, of course, everyone would nod knowingly and assert that, without question, the improvement was mostly due to the LZR. At the time, I seem to recall that a lot of people attributed it to an improved strength program. (Hey, Fort, maybe YOU can start swimming the 2-fly now!!) But it occurs to me that perhaps it was the FS-Pro that was really a leap forward and the LZR was just an incremental improvement. I know that the U of Richmond coach believes that might be the case (or maybe he just doesn't want to blow his entire budget to outfit the team with LZRs). This conjecture maybe explains much of the data as well as the LZR explanation (eg, why Piersol didn't beat his WR by more, why Phelps didn't improve on his fly time to 1:49.9, as Erik once speculated, etc). Just thinking out loud, we are all really just whistling in the dark here... Gah. I guess I deserve all the public and private mocking after declaring myself a tank and announcing I was quitting weight lifting. lol. I think since I train alone mostly, I'm more apt to try out theories and see how they work. I'm not willing to try out the 200 fly though. I don't think "less is more" works for that. I think you're onto something with the Pro being the key innovation. I noticed a big difference between the FS II and the Pro. Had the sensation of zipping through the water faster, especially in and out of turns. Don't have any clue about the LZR. Like you, I had no intention of ordering it. Didn't Phelps wear a full body LZR in the 200 free?

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

knelson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:32:40 GMT

Phelps was slower with the LZR than a year ago in the 200 fly and free. Has Phelps worn the full-body LZR yet during Trials? So far I've only seen him wear the legs. I've heard a lot of talk about the corsetting effect of the full-body LZR, so maybe Phelps isn't getting this by only wearing the legs.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:08:26 GMT

So, on Friday, I swam the 50 free and 50 fly wearing a vintage "paper suit" brief. Times were 26.05 and 22.82. On Sunday, not really being in shape to swim a good 100, I decided to wear a Fastskin Pro bodysuit and go all out on the first 50 of each. Times were 25.12 and 22.30. I remember when you posted that. I did my experiment at a USA-S meet, so no 50s, and I used the FSII not the FS-Pro. I didn't have the same improvement as you -- my times mostly got slower with the FSII, actually -- but I'm willing to repeat the experiment with a different suit. It probably won't be until next spring, however. It may well depend on the swimmer and the event. I remember Paul wondering if the B70 was better for bigger swimmers. (In a way that seems pretty unfair...Paul already has an advantage in reach over most people and now he might get to negate one of the downsides of being big...). I also remember cursing my body suit at the end of the 200 fly, when I felt like I couldn't get enough air...! By the way, 22 is a pretty smoking 50 fly time :)

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:57:23 GMT

A caveat about my SDK comment. I haven't been training SDKs as much since Nats, and I think this was somewhat reflected in my last meet. In fact, I recall Hulk saying I didn't spend as much time underwater in fly and that my backstroke turns were "mediocre." So, the suit did not compensate for training problems in my case. I'm not sure about the body position issue. I think it's harder to tell in sprints. The main sensation I felt was that my pull was stronger. But I did go faster than in my Pro last December. (I was tapered for the Dec. meet, however, I felt "off" and disliked the pool.) Fort, EVERYONE knows why your pull was stronger...!:weightlifter: Thinking some more about this...last year at World Champs, Phelps had a remarkable drop in the 200 fly (1:53.7 to 1:52.0) wearing the FS-Pro. Nowadays, of course, everyone would nod knowingly and assert that, without question, the improvement was mostly due to the LZR. At the time, I seem to recall that a lot of people attributed it to an improved strength program. (Hey, Fort, maybe YOU can start swimming the 2-fly now!!) But it occurs to me that perhaps it was the FS-Pro that was really a leap forward and the LZR was just an incremental improvement. I know that the U of Richmond coach believes that might be the case (or maybe he just doesn't want to blow his entire budget to outfit the team with LZRs). This conjecture maybe explains much of the data as well as the LZR explanation (eg, why Piersol didn't beat his WR by more, why Phelps didn't improve on his fly time to 1:49.9, as Erik once speculated, etc). Just thinking out loud, we are all really just whistling in the dark here...

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Doug Martin — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:40:23 GMT

The next time I taper/shave for a meet in trials and finals format, I'll compare the B70 to briefs or jammers to see the difference...much as I did with the FSII, finding no drastic difference. This is, I think, the only true way to test the suit: rested and shaved under race conditions, keeping everything else the same. Your experience in practice is nice and I enjoyed reading it, but it isn't the same. With regard to bodysuits in general--not the LZR or B70--and their effect, I actually conducted such a test at the Nationals in Austin. I'm in my 50s and grew up shaving for big meets and of course wearing briefs. I've worn bodysuits before but have always preferred the feeling of the water on my skin, and continued to believe I could be faster if I was fully shaved and tapered and wearing a brief. So, on Friday, I swam the 50 free and 50 fly wearing a vintage "paper suit" brief. Times were 26.05 and 22.82. On Sunday, not really being in shape to swim a good 100, I decided to wear a Fastskin Pro bodysuit and go all out on the first 50 of each. Times were 25.12 and 22.30. Clearer water might have made a slight difference, and I made a stroke adjustment in the fly, but there's no doubt the principal difference was the suit. Any remaining skepticism I had is gone. Lindsay makes a good point, however--it doesnt mean that will happen for everybody. We often see this in swimming: there is no universal stroke technique or workout routine or dryland training regimen. What works for one person may not for another because of difference in body type and physiological makeup.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

The Fortress — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:10:06 GMT

Paul, I did read what you wrote, what Glen wrote, what Fortress wrote, and what SVDL said in her interview. It was a little contradictory: you felt a major difference in body position. Glen did not, but felt it helped his underwaters a lot (you said the same). Fort disagreed with that, saying it didn't seem to help her SDKs. And SVDL didn't feel any different and swam slower than with the FSPro. I think relying on feel is subjective and can be misleading. I've had some fast swims when I've felt terrible in the water, and some mediocre swims when I felt great. Ultimately it is about time, not feel. Speaking of times: George brings up a good point too. Through four days, we've had some nice and exciting swimming...but no real jaw-dropping WRs, as we saw with the 50 free when the LZRs first came out. Phelps was slower with the LZR than a year ago in the 200 fly and free...is he more than 2% slower now than a year ago? I don't think so. His 400 IM saw a 1-second improvement, but this isn't 2% and his WR was set at the END of a long World Champs schedule while this swim was at the beginning and he was pushed by Lochte. I don't think the LZR was the cause of the improvement. Other WRs were incremental improvements over past ones. Add a 2% correction and Piersol and Hansen are quite a bit slower than they have been in the past. I will indeed give the B70 a try this summer (no way was I going to get the current generation of LZR). But if I go faster than last summer, I can't be sure how much is the suit or not, since I'm swimming faster now than I was back then and I was also recovering from a broken hand. The next time I taper/shave for a meet in trials and finals format, I'll compare the B70 to briefs or jammers to see the difference...much as I did with the FSII, finding no drastic difference. This is, I think, the only true way to test the suit: rested and shaved under race conditions, keeping everything else the same. Your experience in practice is nice and I enjoyed reading it, but it isn't the same. A caveat about my SDK comment. I haven't been training SDKs as much since Nats, and I think this was somewhat reflected in my last meet. In fact, I recall Hulk saying I didn't spend as much time underwater in fly and that my backstroke turns were "mediocre." So, the suit did not compensate for training problems in my case. I'm not sure about the body position issue. I think it's harder to tell in sprints. The main sensation I felt was that my pull was stronger. But I did go faster than in my Pro last December. (I was tapered for the Dec. meet, however, I felt "off" and disliked the pool.)

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:38:02 GMT

Is it possible that the LZR helps in some events more than others? One could hypothesize that it helps the most in sprint freestyle for example. I still think the question of whether the new suits immediately help everyone who puts one one is less interesting than whether they help some people, and of course who they help the most and how. Also, how much one can learn to use them to best advantage. Purely as an example, it could be that they help people who have less than perfect body position more than people who don't. Or they reduce form drag in streamline to varying degree based on body type and style such that Kitajima gets a big advantage while some other swimmer who wears legskins doesn't. Does anyone know how many of the WRs have been in full body suits versus legs-only suits?

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:49:46 GMT

A few good turns, a little streamline accounts for 18 seconds in a 4:08.2 200.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:48:18 GMT

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:36:01 GMT

All the things you guys are describing show the improvements made in the last 20 years. More pros - better training - longevity of swimmers - and so on. And again this time around we would have seen another small improvement in times --- but please somebody explain the 200 Free improvements for men and women. They dropped more in the last 4 years than all 20 years before combined. I am not backing off anything - there is a massive drop of about 2% - just check all the events. Again, again, again, the suit is likely helping to some degree (although not sure why it would help the 200FR more than any other event). One hypothesis for a jump in performance in the U.S. men's 200FR is the 4-minute mile effect. Recall that once Bannister broke through that purportedly impossible barrier, others soon followed. Thorpe's record at 1:44.1 seemed pretty unattainable for a long time - the best US guys were hovering in 1:46/7 territory. Then Phelps drops a couple 1:45's, then the big 1:43.9. The rest of the US guys realize what they have to do to be a player in this event. They study his splits, see how he works his turns. Heck, several of the guys among the 200 FR elite train with Phelps every day (PVK, Vendt, Tarwater)--or are good friends with him (Lochte), or have coaches that share some training ideas (Bowman -->Reese). Phelps elevated everyone's game in this event.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:07:29 GMT

I'm saying its a combination of things, but the suits have advanced the times significantly/ Lezak goes 47.58 after "toiling" in the 48+ range for 8 years...he trains on his on, has not changed anything...and he put an LZR on tonight. He did have it on this morning when he went 48.15 I think. I don't think you can take all the credit away from Lezak. I'm sure he didn't drop 8 tenths all on his own but it wasn't all suit.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

knelson — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:57:37 GMT

that was an interesting final in the backstroke, the two legskins (peirsol and grevers) beat the two bodyskins (lochte and bal). new world record. 'nuff said. Did I notice Peirsol wearing a LZR? Kind of a blow for Nike if so.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:48:58 GMT

...What this will do to things like TI is going to be interesting because it for the most part compensates for both fatigue and poor technique... Doubtful. I'm by no means fast, but yesterday in a 2k lake race I passed a few people who were wearing full-length neoprene wetsuits (I was in an ordinary swimsuit). There is always going to be a need for good technique.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:20:10 GMT

Paul are you saying that these great swims are only because of a swim suit. No world record set, it should say Phelps, wearing a floating device. Next year it will be Phelps wearing swim paddles. After that Phelps wearing zoomers. What bogus type swimming is coming next. Phelps is slower than his 200 fly WR by a fraction should he not be faster by 2 percent? Did he wear a LZR in March 2007, when he set his WR.???

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:27:09 GMT

Hoch is not a standard masters swimmer. Dude is fast.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:14:15 GMT

As Glen Mills pointed out and I discovered first hand testing a BlueSeventy last week the "flotation" that it provides as a significant impact on body position... Paul, I did read what you wrote, what Glen wrote, what Fortress wrote, and what SVDL said in her interview. It was a little contradictory: you felt a major difference in body position. Glen did not, but felt it helped his underwaters a lot (you said the same). Fort disagreed with that, saying it didn't seem to help her SDKs. And SVDL didn't feel any different and swam slower than with the FSPro. I think relying on feel is subjective and can be misleading. I've had some fast swims when I've felt terrible in the water, and some mediocre swims when I felt great. Ultimately it is about time, not feel. Speaking of times: George brings up a good point too. Through four days, we've had some nice and exciting swimming...but no real jaw-dropping WRs, as we saw with the 50 free when the LZRs first came out. Phelps was slower with the LZR than a year ago in the 200 fly and free...is he more than 2% slower now than a year ago? I don't think so. His 400 IM saw a 1-second improvement, but this isn't 2% and his WR was set at the END of a long World Champs schedule while this swim was at the beginning and he was pushed by Lochte. I don't think the LZR was the cause of the improvement. Other WRs were incremental improvements over past ones. Add a 2% correction and Piersol and Hansen are quite a bit slower than they have been in the past. I will indeed give the B70 a try this summer (no way was I going to get the current generation of LZR). But if I go faster than last summer, I can't be sure how much is the suit or not, since I'm swimming faster now than I was back then and I was also recovering from a broken hand. The next time I taper/shave for a meet in trials and finals format, I'll compare the B70 to briefs or jammers to see the difference...much as I did with the FSII, finding no drastic difference. This is, I think, the only true way to test the suit: rested and shaved under race conditions, keeping everything else the same. Your experience in practice is nice and I enjoyed reading it, but it isn't the same.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Former Member — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:45:47 GMT

I would not call ehoch an average master swimmer, he can elaborate more on this if he wants. Looking at the Canadian number I gave earlier, (padding the time with .5 to account for the relay) the average is .9%. The sample is small but the setting of the experiment is almost perfect as the only difference between the 2 sets of time is the suit. So an effect, yes, maybe less than 2% also.

RE: Some quick numbers on the new suits

Paul Smith — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:25:20 GMT

By the time I put on one of those suits, I would be too tired to swim and the race would already be over. Will one fit me that would be the first question? How do I get 250 lbs of jelly into one of them? Ever heard of Nancy Kinney....79 year old rock star of a woman...wore one last weekend and swam 18 seconds faster in her 200 LCM back then the last time she swam it. Guess she caught on to all the new training techniques going around these days....and it only took her 20 minutes to get it on the first time.