Help me train for the 200 free

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 05:30:49 GMT

This is an excellent result, especially so early in the season. You have the rest of the year to reach your goals, and that's usually how it goes. Either way, a great starting point. I didn't achieve my goal time but it was a 6 second improvement on last year and a PB. On Saturday I went 2:10:33 LCM. Out in a 1:01:44 and back in a 1:08:89. I was happier with my 50 free time of 26:15 which was more than a second faster than last year's 27:30 and also a PB. Try something totally different on the next 200. Go out 1:05, and pretend the second 100 is an all-out sprint.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:26:37 GMT

I think you are worrying about splits too much. Get your self in shape to do 50s in 29 sec on 35. You will soon be doing under 2 minutes for a 200.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:18:56 GMT

Thanks Carrie, Paul and Ande Instead of focusing so much on front half versus back half in practice, do more sets where you build by 50. You're right. I have been too obsessed with the difference between the first and second 100's. Quicksilver suggested I look at it as four strong 50's and I like that way of approaching it. what suit did you wear? Just Arena jammers. No technical suit, yet. I promised myself when I go sub 26 for the 50 free lcm I will get one. To be honest, I would be embarrassed to wear one. Don't feel good enough. yes you definitely can split your 200 better ... a 7.45 sec diff is too wide, you probably went too hard on the first 100 & it cost you on the 2nd 100 you want to go out smooth and easy, breathing often light kick so you're fast but feeling good at the 100 swim a strong 3rd 50 and bring home that last one ideally your 2nd, 3rd and 4th 50 should be very close or even descended I actually did feel strong at the end of the first 100. That first 100 was smooth and far from all out. I haven't raced a 100 lcm since I started up swimming again but based on my 50 time I reckon I could go out in a 27.50 and come back in a 30 for a 57 high. So that first 100 split was about 4 seconds off my 100 time which is what I was aiming for. I lost concentration on that second hundred. At one point I was even thinking about the dinner I had eaten the previous night (waaaay too much red meat and rich seafood and waaaay too spicy). And that lapse in concentration cost me. I shortened my stroke, dropped my elbows and forgot about my kick. And just when I needed to be focussing on them. The 200 requires IMMENSE focus of mind. I both love and hate this race. you want to keep your 100's within 0 to 4.0 Yes, that is what I am aiming for.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

ande — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:55:05 GMT

CONGRATULATIONS SYD 2:10 & 26 are very good what suit did you wear? yes you definitely can split your 200 better 1:01:44 1:08:89 is a 7.45 sec diff which is too wide, you want to keep your 100's within 0 to 4.0 you probably went too hard on the first 100 & it cost you on the 2nd 100 you want to go out smooth and easy, breathing often light kick so you're fast but feeling good at the 100 swim a strong 3rd 50 and bring home that last one ideally your 2nd, 3rd and 4th 50 should be very close or even descended with better splitting you should be able to go 63 65 with more conditioning and speed you'll be even faster take care, ande I didn't achieve my goal time but it was a 6 second improvement on last year and a PB. On Saturday I went 2:10:33 LCM. Out in a 1:01:44 and back in a 1:08:89 I was planning to go out in a 1:01 (so that was spot on) but the wheels came off in the final 50 and I ran out of steam. Still, I am not happy with the 7 + second difference between the first and second hundred. I have to find a way to lower that gap. Thing is, I do this in training. If I go out in a 71, I come back in a 78 or 79. If I go out in a 68 then I come back in a 76 or 77 and if I go out in a 61 the second hundred will be a 69. There always seems to be about a 7, 8 or 9 second difference between my first and second hundreds. Not sure if it is a psychological barrier I need to break or if it is a fitness issue. I was happier with my 50 free time of 26:15 which was more than a second faster than last year's 27:30 and also a PB.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

pwolf66 — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:38:52 GMT

Syd, Nice drop!!!! Instead of focusing so much on front half versus back half in practice, do more sets where you build by 50. So for example if your 50 time is 30 (just to make it easier), then a set of 200s where you build by 50s with a goal of going 45,42,39,37 just to give yourself an emphasis on going faster for the 2nd half.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

aquaFeisty — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:00:03 GMT

Congrats on your PB's, Syd!! A 6 second drop is fantastic, as is a second in a 50! :bliss: I have the same problems with high differential between 1st and 2nd 100's. (Actually, yours is much better than mine.) I'm not sure that 7 seconds is so terrible for LCM. The lack of those turns on the 2nd hundred is a killer.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:05:15 GMT

I didn't achieve my goal time but it was a 6 second improvement on last year and a PB. On Saturday I went 2:10:33 LCM. Out in a 1:01:44 and back in a 1:08:89. I was planning to go out in a 1:01 (so that was spot on) but the wheels came off in the final 50 and I ran out of steam. Still, I am not happy with the 7 + second difference between the first and second hundred. I have to find a way to lower that gap. Thing is, I do this in training. If I go out in a 71, I come back in a 78 or 79. If I go out in a 68 then I come back in a 76 or 77 and if I go out in a 61 the second hundred will be a 69. There always seems to be about a 7, 8 or 9 second difference between my first and second hundreds. Not sure if it is a psychological barrier I need to break or if it is a fitness issue. I was happier with my 50 free time of 26:15 which was more than a second faster than last year's 27:30 and also a PB.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:58:14 GMT

How about these: 1 Adrian, Nathan 12 BREM-22.42 45.86 1:11.00 1:37.17 65 Wildman-Tobriner, Ben 23 UNAT-PC 26.45 55.43(28.98) 1:25.36(29.93) 1:57.63(32.27)

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:31:04 GMT

Thank you everybody for some really excellent advice. (Mentally you'll start the race on your 3rd 50.) That's a good mindset. Great advice and, I think, that's what Paul was hinting at when he said that you have to work the 3rd 50 faster than you think you should be working it. The 3rd 50 is where the pain starts and where you really have to concentrate. If you are swimming 200s they can't be at race pace.If you want to go 2:06 then 2:06 is race pace.If you can do that in workout then your race pace is faster.Broken 50s with the total swim time at 2:06 seems a better way to get race pace.When you are doing "race pace" train your body to know what it is. Good point. I suppose I should have said 'my very fast practice pace'. There are so many things that potentially make you faster on race day (a good taper, a fast, new suit, the stimulus of competition, etc). But you are so right: if you want to compete fast you have to train your body to know what it feels like to go at that pace in practice. 200's are controlled sprints you need speed and endurance work on speed and conditioning in training the best thing you can do to improve your 200 ability is to race one or 2 200's a week Exactly my feeling on the matter. And thanks for those splits Ande! Jonathan and Paul, thanks for those workout sets. I shall definitely be incorporating some of those into my training. I would suggest the more you dial in that 50 speed in workout at the 30 second pace....with less and less rest the more you'll find that same sense of pace in a race. This approach, it seems, is a very effective way of training the body to deal with pain associated with high speed and little rest. 1. Train more for the 500 and your 200 will be solid. Train for the 200 and your 100 will be solid. 2. Take the lead on the 1st 100 if you are not a backhalfer. Never be afraid to establish discipline. 3. Work the 3rd 50 until you cry 4. The race is all about "easy speed". Your first 100 should be smooth and about 2 seconds slower than your best 100. Second hundred should be about 2.5 seconds slower than your 1st 100. 5. The race is one of the most strategic "poker face" races in the sport. Many sprinters have dealt a fierce hand the 1st hundred and held on to win over a backhalfer. It is no longer a middle distance race like the 1970s. It is a controlled sprint as Ande has stated. Sometimes the whole heat waits too long for someone to take the lead and the whole heat does a slow time. 6. Kick......... it is not a 500........ you must kick like a 100 man. 7. Expect to flail your numb arms and throw up the last 50. If you feel strong the last 50 you took it out too slow. 8. Swim your own race or number 5 will blow up in your face. 9. You must have "Easy Speed" 10. Easy Speed 11. Easy Speed 12. Easy Speed 13. Easy Speed 14. Easy Speed 15 Easy Speed ........... and yes..... I did swim this race once upon a time Evil one. Great advice. Thanks John! ... if you really want to excel at the 200 it looks like most swimmers are out in the first 100 within 2 to 3 seconds of their 100 Free time. Anyway, don't hold back too much on your first 100 and then if you can keep the second 100 within 2 to 4 seconds you should do well. I have heard "double your hundred time and add 4 seconds". That would fit in with what you and John are saying - give or take a second. Is that an accurate prediction of where we can/should be? If I do that with my 100 time I should be going a sub 2 min 200 but I am nowhere near that. What implications does that have? I suppose it means that I need to do some serious work on my second 100!

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:19:58 GMT

added another example of how not to swim a 200 from the 2008 Sr Cir meet www.utexas.edu/.../index.htm 14 Jackson, Jonath 18 Longhorn 1:55.59 1:54.57 JRS 24.75 53.17 (28.42) 1:23.12 (29.95) 1:54.57 (31.45) 53.17 1:01.40 OUCH! maybe if he hadn't gone so hard on the 1st and 2nd length he would have been able to hold a much better pace on his last 2 lengths. there were other splits that were worse but those people were going for splits at the 50 or 100 Jonathan was really trying to swim a 200 an 11 second gap is very painful and indicates a serious splitting problem he made the wrong effort choice on the 1st 50 perhaps if he'd given up 2 seconds in the first 100 he might have gained 4 seconds in the 2nd 100 Jonathan Jackson was the Big12 champion in the 50 free SCY as a freshman. He swam a 1:38.02 200 free SCY and split 47.92/50.1 - very nice splits. So it seems he knows how to split a 200. He is a sprinter "swimming up" to the to 200. Maybe he just said to himself "what the hell" and crashed and burned. I think it was a great swim!

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

knelson — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:27:11 GMT

I have heard "double your hundred time and add 4 seconds". That would fit in with what you and John are saying - give or take a second. Is that an accurate prediction of where we can/should be? No way. That's waay too fast. I'd say twice your 100 time plus 8-10 seconds is more like it.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

knelson — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:09:29 GMT

added another example of how not to swim a 200 from the 2008 Sr Cir meet Obviously not a great way to split a race, but if I were his coach I'd be proud of him. It takes guts to take a race out like that. It didn't work out for him, but I give him props for just trying.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:39:58 GMT

The men's WRs for 100 free and 200 free are: LCM: 47.5 / 1:43.86 ......200 = 219% of the 100 time SCM: 45.8 / 1:41.10 ......200 = 221% of the 100 time I think it makes much more sense to apply a percentage than a fixed amount of time. In the WR case the 200 time is 2 X (100 time)+8.89 and 2 X (100 time) + 9.5. I think slower swimmers (like me) might have a similar percentage difference but the time difference in seconds will be greater.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

ande — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:53:17 GMT

I only know of one person who had a double and add 4 seconds for his 100 / 200 ratio he went 58 in the 100 and 2:00 in the 200 needless to say he was a no speed can't sprint drop dead distance dude his 500 pace wasn't much different from his 200 pace he was even better at 1500's & 1,650's and even better at 5k's & 10's exceptional 200 swimmers are double and add 6 seconds phelps goes 48.4 / 1:43.8 which is a 7 second diff swimmers need to be very well conditioned to do this double and add 8 is more common double and add 10 is even more common but some masters are double and add 12 - 18 I tend to be a double and add 10 kind of guy also different ratios apply to different strokes fr & bk often has lower ratios that br & fl though dennis baker went 58 low in the 100 fly & 2:04.68 in the 200 fly which is an 8 second diff in fly which is rare and amazing my 100/200 fly ratio is probably 14 - 16 (i have no desire to test this because it would involve swimming a 200 fly) my 100/200 bk is worse than my 100/200 fr because I SDK in bk better in the 100 than in the 200 it's even worse comparing LCM to scy or scm I have heard "double your hundred time and add 4 seconds".

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:32:45 GMT

Syd, To swim a great 200m race your body will have to adapt to a program that is predominantly focused on sprint endurance. Broken 200's are useful, although a higher level of training at faster than race pace is critical. Example sets are; (On different days) SCM/LCM 5x(4x50) on 1:10, 1:00, :50, :40, 1:30 (LAST 4, BEST AVERAGE) 3x(4x100) on 1:40 (Last 100 of each set FAST) 75 strong on 1:00, 2x25 FAST on :45, 75 strong on 1:00 4x150 on 4:00 with fins, (Best average) 6x50 on 1:00 (Try to hold sub-30's) 4x75 on 1:10 (Try to hold sub-45's) A broken 200 with 10 rest at each 50 200 TOP SPEED with finz LOT's of DISTANCE PER STROKE WORK COUNT STROKES, SWIM SLOWER and bring down total # example 3x400 descend stroke count 4x100 2 strokes less, (walk the stride) Enjoy! How have I been training? Well, mostly doing lots of 200's trying to see how close I can get my splits to one another. At least twice a week I do one at race pace to gauge my progress and get race pace practice. Today I went a 2:08.08 SCM from a push off the wall (out in 1:01 high and back in 1:06 something). Still not ideal splits but an improvement. I felt I still had gas left in the tank, even though I was breathing hard at the end and my pulse was 168. Apart from that I also do some broken 200's (4 x 50 with 10 seconds rest between each). I also do a lot of 100's at 1:20 but I am not sure if these help much at all. Most times I am crusing in somewhere between 1:12 and 1:15 getting 5 seconds rest and going off again. I mean they are a good aerobic workout but I don't know if they help me much for the 200.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Tim L — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:33:35 GMT

Syd, I struggle with the 200 not because I don't evenly split the 100s, but because I don't go out fast enough. I rarely swim the 200 free and I tend to hold back too much on the first 100 which I am trying to remedy. I don't know what your 100 Free time is, but if you really want to excel at the 200 it looks like most swimmers are out in the first 100 within 2 to 3 seconds of their 100 Free time. Anyway, don't hold back too much on your first 100 and then if you can keep the second 100 within 2 to 4 seconds you should do well. Keep up the good work - it sounds like you are making a lot of progress. Tim

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

ande — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:24:29 GMT

200's are controlled sprints you need speed and endurance here's examples of how elite swimmers have recently split it 1 Klueh, Michael 21 Longhorn 1:49.57 1:47.45 OLY 25.74 53.03 (27.29) 1:20.63 (27.60) 1:47.45 (26.82) 2 Cramer, Jayme 25 Unattached 1:50.89 1:47.65 OLY 25.40 52.68 (27.28) 1:20.25 (27.57) 1:47.65 (27.40) 3 Berens, Ricky 20 Longhorn 1:51.45 1:48.74 OLY 25.50 52.79 (27.29) 1:21.19 (28.40) 1:48.74 (27.55) 4 McGinnis, Matt 22 Longhorn 1:50.85 1:49.19 OLY 25.70 53.86 (28.16) 1:21.91 (28.05) 1:49.19 (27.28) 1 Coventry, Kirst 24 Longhorn 2:04.04 1:57.04 OLY 27.34 56.72 (29.38) 1:26.86 (30.14) 1:57.04 (30.18) 2 Marshall, Chris 21 Aggie 2:03.10 1:58.36 OLY 28.61 58.78 (30.17) 1:28.90 (30.12) 1:58.36 (29.46) 3 Rodriquez, Jess 17 Longhorn 2:00.64 2:00.93 OLY 28.29 58.91 (30.62) 1:30.14 (31.23) 2:00.93 (30.79) here's how not to split it 13 Blackman, Canda 22 Mustangs 2:06.72 2:05.27 JRS 28.64 1:00.02 (31.38) 1:32.24 (32.22) 2:05.27 (33.03) She slightly died in this race. or 14 Jackson, Jonath 18 Longhorn 1:55.59 1:54.57 JRS 24.75 53.17 (28.42) 1:23.12 (29.95) 1:54.57 (31.45) 53.17 1:01.40 OUCH ideally you want to keep your 100's 0 to 2 seconds apart 3 or 4 is acceptable 5 or more is acceptable for *** and fly but not back and free basically what you do is swim an easy speed 50 then swim 3 more 50's at the same pace something like 30.9 32.9 32.9 32.9 keep in mind you don't have to flip at the end of the 4th lap, it's a hand touch so if you're holding the same time on the 2nd, 3rd & 4th length you should be slightly faster on your 4th length. when you're racing 200's, remember to: + breathe often + save your legs for the 2nd 100 + build each length + don't die at the 100 + don't try to suddenly change gears, you'll go faster for a moment then shut down and go slower + be fast + stay relaxed work on speed and conditioning in training the best thing you can do to improve your 200 ability is to race one or 2 200's a week warm up rest 10 - 15 minutes put on a fast suit then race a 200 for time, get your splits track your results week to week

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:36:20 GMT

1. Train more for the 500 and your 200 will be solid. Train for the 200 and your 100 will be solid. 2. Take the lead on the 1st 100 if you are not a backhalfer. Never be afraid to establish discipline. 3. Work the 3rd 50 until you cry 4. The race is all about "easy speed". Your first 100 should be smooth and about 2 seconds slower than your best 100. Second hundred should be about 2.5 seconds slower than your 1st 100. 5. The race is one of the most strategic "poker face" races in the sport. Many sprinters have dealt a fierce hand the 1st hundred and held on to win over a backhalfer. It is no longer a middle distance race like the 1970s. It is a controlled sprint as Ande has stated. Sometimes the whole heat waits too long for someone to take the lead and the whole heat does a slow time. 6. Kick......... it is not a 500........ you must kick like a 100 man. 7. Expect to flail your numb arms and throw up the last 50. If you feel strong the last 50 you took it out too slow. 8. Swim your own race or number 5 will blow up in your face. 9. You must have "Easy Speed" 10. Easy Speed 11. Easy Speed 12. Easy Speed 13. Easy Speed 14. Easy Speed 15 Easy Speed ........... and yes..... I did swim this race once upon a time Evil one.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Paul Smith — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:59:10 GMT

and yes..... I did swim this race once upon a time Evil one. And very well indeed....in fact I keep saying its time for you to get back to your roots...200 free/200IM How about in Portland?

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

pwolf66 — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:13:15 GMT

Wow, that's how to go out hard and die like a dog. Took a full second off his seed, tho. What was his heat like? Did someone rabbit on him and he tried to keep up? Agree with you, if he backs down a bit he should more than make up on the back half.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

ande — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:53:51 GMT

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Paul Smith — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:06:20 GMT

Syd, your going to hear a lot of different and usually good advise....however you've already identified the single most important element on how to swim/train/race this distance and that is your taking it out hard/fast. I never have been able to do this and have always been a strong back half swimmer...my constant challenge is getting out fast enough and sadly I only do this well when I have a jackrabbit like John leading the way. Having said all that the bottom line on this distance is no matter how you train or race its gonna hurt in a different way than any other distance. Allen's advice is excellent and I would suggest the more you dial in that 50 speed in workout at the 30 second pace....with less and less rest the more you'll find that same sense of pace in a race. This can be done on broken 200 sets, but many others as well...one that Rich A got me into years a go (an Ian Thorpe classic) is: 16 x 50's @ :50 every 4th 200 pace 12 x 50's @ :55 every 3rd 200 pace 8 x 50's : 1:00 every other 200 pace 4 x 50's @ 1:05 every one 200 pace Good luck!

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:38:30 GMT

Pace the first hundred, save you legs, and come back in an even split. Your first 100 will be fast no matter how you try to contain yourself. (Mentally you'll start the race on your 3rd 50.) That's a good mindset. The 200 requires a strategy based on your ability to sprint versus being hold a steady pace. A sprinter usually takes it out too hard and then suffers the consequences. Aside from swimming sets of 200's or 250's...Try swimming a 200 for time at least once or twice a week (as you already said) Get used to the point where you start falling apart and learn to swim through the discomfort. If you're in really good shape, and you've done your homework... Go out hard and die like a man.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Former Member — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:55:04 GMT

I'm curious as well.

RE: Help me train for the 200 free

Allen Stark — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:53:27 GMT

If you are swimming 200s they can't be at race pace.If you want to go 2:06 then 2:06 is race pace.If you can do that in workout then your race pace is faster.Broken 50s with the total swim time at 2:06 seems a better way to get race pace.Another set would be 100s with the goal to accelerate the whole way and keep your times at 1:05(your goal time for the 2nd 100,I'd call that race pace.)What interval should you do those on?Do them with enough rest to keep at 1:05.When you are doing "race pace" train your body to know what it is.