LZR - Enough is enough

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:01:47 GMT

The LZR is now a political debate as The American Spectator chimes in. In the forthcoming Presidential debates, will the candidates be asked if there for or against the LZR? Hey I'd like to know. www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp I've talked about this subject 'til I'm blue in the face and I'm glad there even more people out there who agree with me. :blah: :oldman: Dolphin 2

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

taruky — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:52:11 GMT

Bah! The same can be said for full body suits generally. Or the "paper suits" of yore, or even basic speedos. What about caps and goggles? Then there are wave dampening lane lines (I think they even double the lane lines in elite-level swimming, don't they) and starting blocks. All these things allowed dramatic improvements over the times people swam before them. As Ande said in another thread, the genie is out of the bottle and it will be well-near impossible to stuff it back in. Also, some of your comparisons just aren't fair. For example, aluminum bats are prohibited in MLB because they give the hitters an unfair advantage over the pitchers. No such concern with swimming (edit--I guess there is the "haves" and the "have nots" which is a legitimate gripe but not one I agree with). I would guess that golf clubs and balls are regulated (at least in part--I'm just speculating here) because certain clubs and balls can correct for deficiencies in players strokes that takes some of the skill out of the game. Unlike neoprene wetsuits, I'm pretty sure that the LZR does not do the swimming for you... I personally don't want to go back to the stone ages of swimming. I'm very happy with the technological progress our sport has made over the years. By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, all I own is a pair of FS Pro Jammers. I don't have any present plans to buy a full bodysuit and I don't care if others do or don't. Ah, but I would argue that a buoyancy aiding swimsuit does correct deficiencies for some swimmers. Isn't maintaining balance part of swimming skill? It stands to reason that some swimmers are better at keeping the hips up than others. Not much different than allowing some swimmers to use hand paddles the size of Phelps' hands.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

aquageek — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:08:19 GMT

I've talked about this subject 'til I'm blue in the face and I'm glad there even more people out there who agree with me. :blah: :oldman: Dolphin 2 That article is bunk, along with any theories that put Phelp's remarkable achievements in doubt. Everyone at the Olympics is in a hot suit so it's a totally level playing field. The guy in the article swam for the US almost 50 years ago, you have no competitive swimming experience so these statements are meaningless. There always has to be one black-cloud over every great accomplishment, I guess you can be proud of your role in that. Sports evolve, technology advances, either get with the program or become/continue to be a noodler.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:53:49 GMT

I have lots of natural "golf ball dimples" on my legs, but it doesn't seem to make me swim any faster. :D

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:51:24 GMT

I think the new suits are an unnerving development. But I most dislike its likely impact on non-elite age group swimming, not the suits themselves. The suit is still a passive component of swimming. Maybe they create flotation by trapping air under rubber-like panels even though the suits don't actually float. In another thread, and I've forgotten which one or I would go back to it, I asked whether it would be a good thing if FINA allowed fins to be used in competition. Hulk drew a distinction between suits and fins that I didn't really understand but seemed arbitrary to my mind. Perhaps an even better question would be, would it be a good thing if FINA were to remove the no buoyancy rule. There's a lot of debate about whether the new suits increase buoyancy by trapping air either inside the suit or on the surface, or whether swimmers just feel "like" they are more buoyant. In any case, buoyant suits are just one possible technological advancement that could help swimmers swim faster, just like the current suits. Is there some distinction why it is good to approve the current suits but it wouldn't be good to approve more buoyant suits?

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:37:49 GMT

What we need is golf ball dimpled technology applied to swim wear. It can also be applied to bic pens to make the little ball write faster.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:33:50 GMT

Maybe the makers of BIC Pens should come up with a gimick of their own by developing a faster pencil and then solicit top science, engineering, and mathematics students to promote it by claiming it helped them solve physics problems in record time. OOOhhh I can see it now -Joe Schmoe set a new world's record for completing the SAT. :doh: However, if you really want to apply technology to swimming, just have someone develop a video game where the players control virtual swimmers and Intel can take some of the credit for setting a new world's record. As a plus, the Olympics can be held entirely on line (without regard to whether the host country is run by a bunch of Communists). :shakeshead: Dolphin 2

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:12:06 GMT

Dolphin - I won't be as scolding as aquageek is. But really - technology (or science perhaps) is a critical factor in developing our bodies. Without pioneering research by Doc Counsilman and continued by many - swimming speed might have advanced only via trial and error. Example: sculling was widely believed to be a major factor in swimming efficiency. But research showed it was not - it was more efficient to simply push water backwards as straight as possible. Those science driven improvements are still all about the body moving through the water. What about the science with diets? Lactate tolerance? The technology of goggles - which caused the single most significant improvement in swimming in the last 50 years? I think the new suits are an unnerving development. But I most dislike its likely impact on non-elite age group swimming, not the suits themselves. The suit is still a passive component of swimming. Maybe they create flotation by trapping air under rubber-like panels even though the suits don't actually float.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 06:22:23 GMT

That article is bunk, along with any theories that put Phelp's remarkable achievements in doubt. Everyone at the Olympics is in a hot suit so it's a totally level playing field. The guy in the article swam for the US almost 50 years ago, you have no competitive swimming experience so these statements are meaningless. There always has to be one black-cloud over every great accomplishment, I guess you can be proud of your role in that. Sports evolve, technology advances, either get with the program or become/continue to be a noodler. Hey Aquageek What kind of "technology" does swimming require? All it takes is a well developed body and a pool. Technology is for science and industry, but athletics is about a person's ability. :dedhorse: By the way, once the '08 Olympics are over, the suit makers will have gained tons of "Brand Exposure", "Product Placement", and other "Infomercial" spin offs from Phelps winning Gold Medals. Incidentally, all Mark Spitz got was his mug on the front of Wheaties. I can see their ads: "Speedo - The suit that won 7 Gold Medals in '08." :party2: Dolphin 2

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

beluga — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 06:07:33 GMT

However, if you really want to apply technology to swimming, just have someone develop a video game where the players control virtual swimmers and Intel can take some of the credit for setting a new world's record. WII Swimming www.youtube.com/watch www.youtube.com/watch

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Tim L — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:07:09 GMT

Check this website for an explanation of golf ball dimples - wings.avkids.com/.../golf-01.html It would be funny to see a dimple suit, but I doubt it would work unless you have a round spinning object that is moving at a very high rate of speed. I thought the dimples also helped golf balls spin more which helped with lift, but the web site doesn't really comment on that. Tim

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

aquageek — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 04:05:51 GMT

What we need is golf ball dimpled technology applied to swim wear. It can also be applied to bic pens to make the little ball write faster. This is actually an intriguing idea. I have no clue on physics and can't understand why something with all that extra surface area goes farther than something smooth. Could the same be said of dimpling swim suits? Do we have any physicists out there that can explain this in terms a 2nd grader can understand?

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

aquageek — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:44:54 GMT

Hey Aquageek What kind of "technology" does swimming require? All it takes is a well developed body and a pool. Technology is for science and industry, but athletics is about a person's ability. :dedhorse: By the way, once the '08 Olympics are over, the suit makers will have gained tons of "Brand Exposure", "Product Placement", and other "Infomercial" spin offs from Phelps winning Gold Medals. Incidentally, all Mark Spitz got was his mug on the front of Wheaties. I can see their ads: "Speedo - The suit that won 7 Gold Medals in '08." :party2: Dolphin 2 Dolphin: Once again your ignorance of basic facts is truly astounding. First, you certainly know that Spitz had enormous commercial marketing success from his run in 1972, so much that he completely changed his career focus due to the influx of money. Mark Spitz, to his credit, enjoys enormous success TO THIS DAY, based on what he did almost 40 years ago. And you think all he got was a Wheaties box, crazy. He made $7m USD in the two years following the Olympics. That's a lot more than Wheaties. Spitz signed as a spokesperson for the Schick Company, the California Milk Advisory Board, Adidas, Speedo and countless other companies making everything from swimming pools to men's underwear. A poster featuring Spitz wearing his swimsuit and seven gold medals made him the hottest pin-up since Betty Grable. Second, "all it takes is a well developed body and a pool?" Are you high? You don't think technology plays into both a well developed body and pools? Have you been to a modern pool lately? Have you seen these swimmers train? What is low-tech about that? Just because you and tjburk are still living la vida loca on the Jack Lalaine juice diet doesn't mean the rest of the sporting world hasn't advanced. Once again, please stop fabricating facts. Might I suggest you spend some time around elite level athletes before you make such bizarre assertions. Heck, spend some time at a pre-school age guppy lesson, for that matter.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:51:25 GMT

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:44:52 GMT

George W. apparently said he loves blueseventy. :-) thewaterisopen.blogspot.com/.../first-days-at-2008-olympics.html

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

ande — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:11:21 GMT

hi michelle I didn't write it just sharing an article I stumbled upon Great post by Ande. I can't wait for the cap. Wasn't there a cap with built-in goggles? Or am I mistaking that with the kiddie aisle/season swim section? I wonder if that will make a comeback.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Allen Stark — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:43:29 GMT

In the 70s there was the Gogglecap.It was a really good product.In the late 90s Speedo came out with "The Mask" which was also a gogglecap.It was poorly made and ugly.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:40:33 GMT

Paul you look like a true Canadian in your new Avatar pic.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Former Member — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:28:32 GMT

Paul, that new avatar is world class!

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

chowmi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:04:52 GMT

Great post by Ande. I can't wait for the cap. Wasn't there a cap with built-in goggles? Or am I mistaking that with the kiddie aisle/season swim section? I wonder if that will make a comeback.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

chowmi — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:59:35 GMT

Blueseventy nero: Female sizing? Anyone know how the nero size runs? Not interested in the Pointzero 3/3+; only the nero (not 10K). The size chart says I can wear about 3 different sizes, depending on chest, waist, height (assuming this is not the measure-around-your-crotch-and-over-your-shoulder Speedo measurement), and weight. Blueseventy emailed me back and said I was a 26. But according to all other measurements I could be a 22 or 24. Anyone have any experience with sizes yet? FYI, I wear a 26L Speedo FS PRo with zipper back. In the meantime, I am searching for a local store that might have one in store to try on.

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

ande — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:26:44 GMT

more on SUIT WARS Not a suitable week for swim team Scott Ostler Thursday, June 26, 2008 (06-25) 20:59 PDT -- You sports historians out there might want to mark down next week on your calendars. That's the week that the last honest Olympic sport will bite the dust, in a pool. It will happen at the U.S. Olympic swim trials in Omaha, Neb., starting Sunday. Michael Phelps, Natalie Coughlin and about 40 others will swim their way onto the greatest swim team of all time, a U.S. squad that will be favored to dominate the Olympics for the fifth straight time. The trials should be a wonderful meet, but under the surface will be big-time turmoil. The Swimsuit Wars are about to get crazy. And it couldn't happen at a worse time, right when the swimmers are most in need of inner calm and focus. Instead, there will be a mad scramble for magic swimsuits. Swimmers who aren't locked into a contract with a suit company will be running around like crazed brides-to-be trying to find a gown the night before the wedding. Swimmers who are locked into contracts might be scrambling to unlock. The timing is really, really crummy. "There's a lot of talk (about suits), a lot of pressure and anxiety, kids trying to get their hands on suits," one top collegiate coach told me. "Turmoil might be the right word. Or frenzy." A few lucky swimmers seem to be settled, at least until the next rumor/buzz, which you're about to read. Phelps and Coughlin are well-paid Speedo endorsees, so barring a last-minute development, they'll wear the hot-hot-hot Speedo LZR Racer. Most swimmers, though, have had only a taste of the new suits, and they are forced to decide on the fly which of the three - the Speedo, or suits by Tyr and Nike - are fastest. Once the decision is made, the swimmer must lay his or her hands on a suit, and then must hope he or she has time to practice in the suit in order to adjust stroke and technique, because the new suits alter the shape of the body and change balance and buoyancy. But wait, there's more! A California company named blueseventy has unleashed a suit that might be speedier than the Speedo. The radar of every coach and swimmer is buzzing. If you want to attract a crowd in Omaha, just reach inside your overcoat and say, "Pssst! blueseventy?" What would Phelps and Coughlin do should it become apparent that the blueseventy suit is faster than the LZR? Ideally, all this scrambling to find the right suit and learn how to swim in it would have taken place a year or two ago, so as not to disrupt the trials and the Olympics. In fact, U.S. head coach Mark Schubert, in a phone news conference Wednesday, asserted that the "smart" coaches and athletes already have tested suits and made decisions. "We gave all the top coaches the heads-up in December that this was going to be coming," Schubert said, "and most of our best coaches and athletes are well prepared for it." The Speedo suits weren't available until mid-February, and on a limited basis. At some meets, where the suits were loaned to swimmers, demand exceeded supply. And the blueseventy is new to almost everyone. So even some smart swimmers and coaches are caught in a last-minute scramble, at a bad time. "Speedo and the other companies aren't interested in what would be the right thing," one coach told me. "They're interested in making money. I think (the timing) is irresponsible, quite honestly." When might have been a good time? Never would have been good. As one prominent swimming insider told me, of the new suit technology, "I feel it's cheating. It's disrespectful of the history of the sport." And unnecessary. Why do we need this high-tech stuff? Why does swimming have to become golf? Why couldn't swimming stay pure and basic? Well, because of money. Speedo and Nike help finance big-time swimming (money to coaches, athletes, swim organizations), so nobody will stand up and say, "Sorry, Speedo/Nike/Tyr, we won't allow high-tech to invade our sport." The Suit Wars will continue, with the swimmers, and fans, held hostage. Nike and Tyr swimmers panicked when the new Speedo suit hit town, breaking records like crazy (of the 37 world records broken since the LZR was unveiled in February, 35 were in the Speedo). Erik Vendt, a potential medalist in the 1500 freestyle, jumped his Tyr contract to wear a Speedo, and Tyr sued Vendt - and Speedo and USA Swimming and Schubert. Nike, perhaps realizing its swimsuit isn't as fast as the Speedo, recently gave seven of its endorsees, including backstroker Aaron Peirsol and breaststroker Brendan Hansen, permission to wear a Speedo at the Trials. But at the Olympics, will Nike force its guys to climb back into (relatively) sluggish Nikes? By the way, if you wonder why mankind can't cure cancer or solve the energy problem or climate crisis, it's because all the world's scientists have been diverted into R&D of the swimsuit. And cap. Nike just came out with a new high-tech swim cap. Seriously. A coach who will be coaching at the trials told me, "I'll just say to my swimmers, 'Here, put on a new suit, and a new cap, and good luck. Don't let it bother you.' " www.sfgate.com/.../article.cgi

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Midas — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 06:02:24 GMT

Translation; Chicks This is why I'm hoping to drag my wife to the Pacific Masters championships!

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

Paul Smith — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:36:30 GMT

spectators Translation; Chicks

RE: LZR - Enough is enough

ande — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:29:04 GMT

in his article Glenn said he didn't train much between Masters Nats and this meet, he modified his glide and wore the blue seventy pointzero which helped him drop from 2:19 to 2:13 in the 200 scm IM and from 2:30 to 2:22 in the 200 SCM *** though some speculate the true reason Glenn swam faster was he was super psyched to impress spectators By the way, I spoke with Glenn Mills after he wore the ZeroPoint3+ at the IGLA meet so I went with the same suit....here's his article on the suit: www.goswim.tv/.../my-blueseventy.html