Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

dorothyrde — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 07:19:38 GMT

Our HS has intramural basketball. There is club soccer, club basketball(AAU), club volleyball, club track, club swimming, club baseball and softball. All big bucks, all lots of time spent, all much better coaching then you get from the rec league coaching(I was a rec league coach I can say that). Since I have a very uncompetitive daughter(misses her heats because she is laughing and talking to the timers before a race) she now does no sport but rec swimming, because at the HS level there is no other offering besides club. She does not mind, as she has gotten into theater, and the arts. She auditioned and got a small part in a summer musical, and you want to talk about time.....6:30-9:30 every evening, and tech week will be worse. However, it is her choice, and she is having a lot of fun with it. She loves to swim, and I can see in a couple of years she will be a great masters swimmer!

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Sat, 31 May 2008 14:01:04 GMT

...It seems like the varsity team or nothing mindset might be contributing to things like the obesity epidemic and the general preference for watching sports over participating in them. I'm suggesting adding a club sport program not replacing the varsity squad. I was thinking the same thing. It was hard enough to be the out-of-shape asthmatic kid who got picked last for teams back in the days when it was just kids in better shape who played a variety of sports who were the better athletes. Now it must seem - perhaps realistically - impossible to catch up to the professionally- since-age-four crowd. When I was in high school they started introducing lifetime sports like cross-country skiiing into gym class. Great idea except they only offered it to the high-level classes. In other words, the kids who were already very good at sports and were likely to be active anyway. Those of us who were in the lower tier mandatory class got the same old cr*p we'd always had in gym class, the sorts of things that made us hate gym class in the first place. They missed a great opportunity to convert sedentary kids into active ones. If I hadn't biked everywhere back then because I was too poor to buy a car, I'd probably be a completly sedentary lump by now. Getting back on topic, I've never met an ex football player who didn't have some kind of chronic injury or a hockey player who wasn't keeping his dentist in winter vacations. This newspaper article seems very patronizing. It puts me in mind of all the uninformed busy bodies who lectured me about how running would cause my uterus to fall out back in the early eighties :confused:

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

knelson — Sat, 31 May 2008 12:57:16 GMT

There are only a few university affiliated masters clubs in Canada currently. ... Does the college club/intermural system extend down into the high schools there? I would guess most college club sports don't extend to swimming. Jazz Hands swims for Western Washington University's club team (swimming isn't a varsity sport at WWU), so it isn't unheard of, but the usual club sports are things like soccer, softball, ultimate, etc. You know, team sports that are more fun ;) I've never heard of intramural sports at the HS level in the U.S. There are definitely exceptions, but for the most part high school sports are pretty inclusive. You don't have to be a superstar to participate. You might spend a lot of time riding the pine during games or meets, but you can be a member of the team.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Sat, 31 May 2008 05:23:28 GMT

The problem w/ having HS swimming/sports be for fitness is that those students FLAKE out on workouts and end up dropping. There's got to be some accountability for high school students b/c of the "I don't wanna" attitude that inevitably sets in. In my experience as a high school coach (3 years, boys), I was quite successful at pushing the "fitness" swimmers to put in consistent efforts, set goals and realize them. I also taught and trained my swimmers to race, whereas most HS swimmers put in mindless yards. But the life lessons are extremely important: analyze the goal break down the parts needed to achieve that goal (technique, endurance, technique, turns, starts, pacing, pacing w/ technique, speed, technique w/ speed, more technique, etc. Did I mention technique?) set out on a game plan to achieve that discuss and plan for breakdowns in the game plan; distinguish btw excuses and constructive critiques of a breakdown visualize success etc. These are directly transferable skills that are applicable to anything in life. My experience was that even the fitness swimmers got on board w/ the game plan b/c they could see where we were going.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Sat, 31 May 2008 05:10:12 GMT

I've never heard of intramural sports at the HS level in the U.S. My school had them, and they were the source of major laughs, as the names were quite amusing and almost inevitably poked fun at the administration. Some of my favorite names were "Survivors from Chernobyl", "Zorcasm" (admin thought that it was a video game... didn't quite get the obvious play on "orgasm") and the best... "With Themselves", who somehow got the organizers to put them as the home team every single game. So it was announced on the intercom as, "Zorcasm plays With Themselves", "Survivors from Chernobyl plays With Themselves". :applaud: At one of my alma maters there's now an intramural team known as "Axis of Relatively Decent Countries". :lmao:

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 16:57:44 GMT

Re specialization... according to the NYT article, most researchers that look at the subject believe specialization leads to tons more injuries, in particular joint injuries. Doing different activities gives a kid's body a chance to rest and heal. Also kids learn different life lessons from different sports. Moreover I think it's a good experience for a kid to be a star on one team and a role player on another. What really sucks for a good athlete is that if he doesn't focus on a single sport then he is constantly at a disadvantage when it comes to getting on these year-round teams and getting playing time.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 15:10:13 GMT

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 12:40:10 GMT

news.yahoo.com/.../baby_boomers_dc_2 Baby boomers' bodies hit by years of wear and tear By Megan Rauscher Fri May 30, 3:30 PM ET "NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Doctors who specialize in disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints and ligaments are being kept busy these days, as increasing numbers of baby boomer athletes and exercise enthusiasts hit middle age and beyond...." "....Ross is also concerned about the alarming rise in sports-related injuries suffered by children and adolescents who overdo it on the playing field. "Today, injuries occur in kids who do sports like soccer, baseball, and ballet year-round, without taking a break. What happens to them 20 to 30 years later, after suffering an injury as a teenager? It's a concern," Ross said"

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

knelson — Fri, 30 May 2008 11:52:23 GMT

Who says specialization is so bad? If your kid finds a sport they love why shouldn't they stick with it?

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

The Fortress — Fri, 30 May 2008 11:32:39 GMT

I live on the Westside of Los Angeles which has the two ingredients for hyper-competitive youth sports: parents with lots of $ and parents who have trouble saying no to their kids. Soccer and baseball are huge here. My son is in fourth grade and there are two girls in his class that play club soccer. This past season (8 months) they played a total of 64 games and were traveling virtually every weekend. For the most part it's not pushy parents that drive this toxic situation. These kids are talented and driven and want to be on the team with all the good players. Most parents I know find it next to impossible to tell their daughter or son, "Yes, I know you love soccer, and I know you're really good, and I know all your friends are doing it, but I think it's important that you do different sports and have different experiences and give your body a chance to heal." That conversation never happens. Yeah, $$ can lead to hyper-competitive trouble. I remember when some parent on my kid's travel soccer team bought their kid $150 kangaroo skin cleats and updated us weekly on the national rankings of all local travel teams. Keeping kids in multiple sports can be hard too though. The time commitment and burnout factor is huge. By comparison with the parents around here, I am a very mellow, non-pushy parent. More parents need to work on being benign dictators for their kids' sake. Just because a coach says he wants your kid practicing 6-8 times a week doesn't mean your kid should.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 11:03:18 GMT

I live in Southern Cal. The more serious kids swim and compete year round on club teams, but compete in the spring for their high school teams (although they don't really work out with them). There are kids however that swim and workout just for on the high school team, but the intensity level for those workouts is much less than club.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

knelson — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:15:32 GMT

I'll be very un PC here and say that the craziest parents I have seen at sporting events are typically out of shape and often very heavy. My wife has told me the same thing regarding figure skating, which she competes in. She says there are lots of very overweight moms who seem to be living vicariously through their kids' skating achievements.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

pwolf66 — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:06:36 GMT

I'll be very un PC here and say that the craziest parents I have seen at sporting events are typically out of shape and often very heavy. This is a generalization and an observation on my part. I saw some really fat dude laying into his 7 year old daughter at a meet and I wanted to push him right into the pool, but I wasn't strong enough. Where is Jazz Hands when you really need him? Not to agree with Geek (shudder :laugh2:) or to be guilty of a glittering generality, I have also noted that trend or at least a higher ratio. See, Geek, if you did deadlifts and squats, you WOULD have the explosive strength to do such things. Paul

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

aquageek — Fri, 30 May 2008 09:14:49 GMT

One thing I've noticed, and wonder if others have as well, is that parents who were elite athletes in college, or even beyond, tend not to push their kids so young. Most have a very relaxed attitude about it all and realize that under about age 10 it's about fun and learning. I'll be very un PC here and say that the craziest parents I have seen at sporting events are typically out of shape and often very heavy. This is a generalization and an observation on my part. I saw some really fat dude laying into his 7 year old daughter at a meet and I wanted to push him right into the pool, but I wasn't strong enough. Where is Jazz Hands when you really need him?

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 08:41:10 GMT

I'm glad to hear that, perhaps it is a difference between here and there or then and now but when I went to university they had swim lessons/classes and a swim team but nothing like masters. There are only a few university affiliated masters clubs in Canada currently. Growing up in Alberta I never heard of high school swimming, there was only club swimming. Does the college club/intermural system extend down into the high schools there?

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

aquaFeisty — Fri, 30 May 2008 07:43:18 GMT

Elementary children should do what is fun. If it becomes work, it is too much. Exactly! And Paul made a good point about the kids who are really doing extreme work in a particular sport... they need to LOVE that sport. Re: the early specialization and not making a HS team spot, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Around here, everyone is convinced that their kids won't make those HS spots, thus the early specialization and all the extra lessons, thus EVERYONE trying for those spots has been through that mega-training system, thus indeed you don't see hardly any relative newcomers making the HS team... I can't imagine putting a 4 year old in an intense training program. Geez, 4? That's gotta be totally parent-driven. My daughter is 3... I'm proud when she stays focussed enough to make it through the whole 'Wheels on the Bus' song at the end of a swim lesson. :D And while I see nothing inherently wrong with 3 y.o. tot soccer, I am too much of a lazy mom to enroll her in it. I'd rather not have that weekly appt and take her to the pool or the park.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 06:40:37 GMT

No doubt I'll get eaten alive for saying this but Geek has already outed me as a pinko commie so what the heck. It seems to me that there would be some merit to adding a masters-like approach to sports at the high school and university levels, i.e. with an emphasis on fun, fitness and healthy lifestyle instead of a highly competitive focus. Would it be such a bad thing if high school students participated in swimming as a health and fitness activity even if they weren't as good as the kids whose parents put them into training at age four? It seems like the varsity team or nothing mindset might be contributing to things like the obesity epidemic and the general preference for watching sports over participating in them. I'm suggesting adding a club sport program not replacing the varsity squad. :bolt:

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

dorothyrde — Fri, 30 May 2008 06:33:53 GMT

I've got a question along this line. How do you know when you are pushing too hard versus letting a truly gifted athlete (child) have their shot at the top? Its easy to see the dad living vicariousky through his son, but when is it truly necessary to push so they have the chance down the road? Example are the gymnasts that are working hours every day starting at 4 years old because they have the talent to make the Olympics. Usually, the whole family works around one kid's schedule. Do you just trust the coach? Ask a 4 year old? Use your gut? I don't believe you should have any 4 year old working to make the Olympics. Too many variables that can change. My daughter was teeny tiny and agile at age 4, and really did a lot better than a lot of the kids in her little tumbling class. She remained teeny tiny until puberty, and while she is in no way huge, she is average build and not at all a gymnast build. My son was small as well until his growth spurt at age 17, so at 4 there is no way to tell even with genetics what their build will be. Elementary children should do what is fun. If it becomes work, it is too much.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 05:56:51 GMT

So what are you suggesting be done? If you eliminate the periphrastic vertiginous rhetoric, you want to eliminate sports that are too tough for women so more men can compete? Tis what we call... a strawman. Kids. Don't try this at home. :rolleyes: If women are getting hurt despite good coaching and equipment, well, it's the luck of the draw and I don't think that we should deny them the chance to compete out of knee-jerk nanny-ism. At least in the case of swimming, I don't think that the gap btw girls and boys and quality coaching is all that big compared to other sports, especially b/c there are few (quality) youth teams that separate boys and girls in training. Nor should they. ('Course... I've never coached kids, so :dunno: ) As girls and boys pass puberty, however, there needs to be an adjustment in training styles, especially regarding tapering. Men need more rest b/c of higher muscle mass. Far too many masters and youth teams train men and women identically. I cringed at some of the "tapered" workouts I heard about while in Austin.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

aquageek — Fri, 30 May 2008 03:59:01 GMT

Chris is correct - club sports (intramurals) at universities are huge, not to mention super fun, with all levels of competitiveness.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 30 May 2008 02:47:15 GMT

It seems to me that there would be some merit to adding a masters-like approach to sports at the high school and university levels, i.e. with an emphasis on fun, fitness and healthy lifestyle instead of a highly competitive focus. ... I'm suggesting adding a club sport program not replacing the varsity squad. Around here at the university level, club sports are thriving. I am the faculty advisor for two of them (cycling, swimming) and I can assure you that they are very "masters-like" in their approach. There are some who work very hard and take it very seriously -- the local crew club comes to mind -- while others are more relaxed. Just like masters. Participation is very high in club sports on this campus. In fact, a William & Mary college student who is captain of her swimming club is swimming with our masters group here in Richmond over the summer.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Thu, 29 May 2008 10:36:06 GMT

Yup... and the parents who are convinced their kid won't make the HS team if they don't start specializing and training the heck out of them before they hit middle school... There is a family that recently moved into a house on my block. They supposedly moved from a much wealthier neighborhood a few miles away. The reason? Because their son had a better shot at being a star athlete in this neighborhood's high school.

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Thu, 29 May 2008 08:55:36 GMT

How do you tell whether a 4 year old has the talent to make it to the Olympics?!? And what sort of training does a 4 year old do that is critical to their success when they're old enough to go?

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

Former Member — Thu, 29 May 2008 08:45:14 GMT

RE: Hurt Girls (NTTimes on another downside to Title IX)

pwolf66 — Thu, 29 May 2008 07:02:03 GMT

Example are the gymnasts that are working hours every day starting at 4 years old because they have the talent to make the Olympics. Usually, the whole family works around one kid's schedule. Do you just trust the coach? Ask a 4 year old? Use your gut? That is such a tough question because of all the sports, gymnastics seems to be the one where one's 'prime' gets a little younger every year. I honestly don't know but I find it nearly impossible to beleive that that level of talent can be indentified at such an early age. Heck, a huge growth spurt at age 8-9 could wipe out any 'talent' shown at a young age. But I would leave it up to the child, if they don't enjoy it and cases of extreme participation, absolutely LOVE it, then it's not right to push them to that level. It's supposed to be fun, it's not supposed to be work, trust me that comes in another 18 years or so. Paul