IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

rtodd — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:14:10 GMT

BillS I agree. Although I am very strong and have a good anaerobic energy system from running sprints, I can't get under 26 SCY. For me It must be technique. In fact, I never had a 50 where I did not screw something up like one or two strokes, breakout or turn. For me the idea of muscling a 50 is true in the sense that bad technique just makes itself more evident as the distance goes up. I swim against people that I loose to by less than a second in the 50 and 5 seconds in the 100.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

BillS — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:50:01 GMT

But I believe it is possible, although not desirable, to muscle though a 50 and make top ten based on pure athleticism and strength. Anything longer, forget about it. Not in my age group (45-49). You had to go under 23 to hit the top twenty in the 50 free at Nationals. I just don't think it's possible to muscle your way to a competitive time in that realm without a significant investment in technique training, whether recent or banked in the muscle memory from college days.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

The Fortress — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 01:04:59 GMT

Not in my age group (45-49). You had to go under 23 to hit the top twenty in the 50 free at Nationals. I just don't think it's possible to muscle your way to a competitive time in that realm without a significant investment in technique training, whether recent or banked in the muscle memory from college days. It's possible in my age group (45-49). lol It happened at Nats. It's possible that people that have theoretically "bad technique" or a non-ideal or non-standard stroke have a strong underwater pull and just don't look as "pretty" on top.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Allen Stark — Sat, 31 May 2008 01:22:10 GMT

A rapid turnover can cover up a multitude of sins,but it can take you only so far.I don't think anyone here is advocating not working on technique.Improving technique is the easiest,fastest way to get faster(perfecting technique is a constant striving for something just out of reach,you can always do better)

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 15:02:04 GMT

Technique (for any sport) is like the jewler's chisle. A diamond can be wonderful in the rough, but well carved it can be magnificent. To neglect technique is a lost opportunity to improve. Very nice.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 13:44:35 GMT

I don't believe that anyone here is advocating muscling through a race. What people here have said is swimmers who do muscle their way through a 50 (with times that are far from top 10) will exhibit larger drop offs in the 100 and 200 races than swimmers who have excellent technique. There is a big difference between observing that a swimmer may be muscling through the 50 as a hypothesis for why a swimmer has a big drop off and advocating muscling through the 50, right? In fact, in making this observation we are advocating for working on better technique.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 12:36:25 GMT

Don't know that you can really draw conclusions from this info. You probably are a sprinter, like Ande says. Didn't you say once that you ran the 200 and 400 in track? So you're likely very strong. While Paul is right that no one can be at the top while muscling out distances, I totally agree with Kirk. Especially for those of us who do not have a swimming background, you can muscle through shorter races a lot more than the longer ones. I betcha you're relying on your strength and natural athleticism (and running background) in the 50 and inefficiency is hurting you in the longer events. I'd work on technique, but more importantly, holding technique when your body is failing... ie., descending sets, maintaining stroke count, coming up past the flags off every turn, sticking with your breathing pattern, keeping your kick at whatever cadence you're shooting for, etc etc at the END of workout... Like what you said here. Just makes me wonder - I've heard from top swimmers/ coaches that on sprints: You can muscle through them due to the short duration and do well and conversely, You can't muscle through sprints as you have to have flawless technique And on distance, I've heard: You can have poor technique and just a strong aerobic base and outlast everyone and conversely, You have to have great technique and can't muscle through it Gah!

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Big AL — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:54:03 GMT

Technique (for any sport) is like the jewler's chisle. A diamond can be wonderful in the rough, but well carved it can be magnificent. To neglect technique is a lost opportunity to improve.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

knelson — Fri, 30 May 2008 10:53:57 GMT

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

The Fortress — Fri, 30 May 2008 09:54:02 GMT

I love drill work. But other elite swimmers (e.g., George, Ande) don't. But I believe it is possible, although not desirable, to muscle though a 50 and make top ten based on pure athleticism and strength. Anything longer, forget about it.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

aquaFeisty — Fri, 30 May 2008 09:53:39 GMT

Bingo. Thanks for summing it up so well, Lindsay. To be really and truly FAST, you need to be good all around: technique, strength, conditioning, mentality, etc etc etc

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Paul Smith — Fri, 30 May 2008 09:29:12 GMT

From the mouths of masters swimmers hoping to break into the USMS top 10 and refuse to do any drill work in practice: "You can muscle through them due to the short duration and do well" From World record holders: "You can't muscle through sprints as you have to have flawless technique" All triathletes who didn't come from a swimming background, print their workouts from the internet and train alone, yet never win any races or make top 10 in their age groups: "You can have poor technique and just a strong aerobic base and outlast everyone" Ian Thorpe, Dennis Baker, Jim McConica, Grant Hackett, Janet Evans, Chris McCormack: "You have to have great technique and can't muscle through it"

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

aquaFeisty — Fri, 30 May 2008 07:52:54 GMT

Isn't the opposite more likely to be true? Resistance in the water increases exponentially with speed: greater speed means exponentially greater resistance. Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't more drag and resistance in shorter events due to the higher speeds... I'm saying that muscle and determined ummmph can overcome these things in a race that lasts less than 30 seconds. NOT that you will be fantastically fast at the short races, but that you will be relatively faster in your 50 than your 100, your 100 than your 200, etc... No amount of 'ummmph' is going to get you through a 200 when the training and technique is lacking. That last 50 is going to be ugly (or in my case, the last 100!)

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Fri, 30 May 2008 05:19:06 GMT

You see high school boys with little competitive experience who are able to swim 22 second 50 yard freestyles all the time more or less on pure athleticism. Now whether or not you want to call it "muscling through" is merely a question of semantics, but basically we're saying their technique is not great. I don't see these same guys able to swim a fast 200 or 500, though. I think we can all agree that to be a great sprinter you need great technique, but we're not talking about greatness here. edit: I like Al's analogy of a rough diamond in the next post. This is absolutely true. I have seen it many times. These high school boys are very strong, have explosive power, and overcome their deficiencies with turnover and hand speed. The same unskilled kid who goes 22 in the 50 goes 50 in the 100 and 2:00 in the 200. A more skilled swimmer might go 21/46/1:46 instead. I have also seen raw non-year round high school swimmer drop from 24 sec 50 to a 22 just with better technique. As a 49 yr old Masters swimmer - I'd be happy with a 23 sec 50, skilled or unskilled. My approach is through more skill and better fitness. I'm getting closer.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Thu, 29 May 2008 15:37:08 GMT

Isn't the opposite more likely to be true? Resistance in the water increases exponentially with speed: greater speed means exponentially greater resistance. I suspect that one has to look at the energy systems in use and their limits, and also keep in mind that we are talking about moderately fast swims (30s 50m) not elite level performances. Again, look at butterfly which is an inefficient stroke relative to freestyle and the drop offs are larger than for freestyle. And of course for small differences in speed and large differences in efficiency the exponential factor may not dominate.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

james lucas — Thu, 29 May 2008 11:01:04 GMT

... can achieve 50m free times in the 30s range by "muscling" our way through it while the same inefficient effort can't be extended out to the 200m range? That inefficient technique will result in bigger drop offs as distance increases... Isn't the opposite more likely to be true? Resistance in the water increases exponentially with speed: greater speed means exponentially greater resistance.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

rtodd — Thu, 29 May 2008 07:42:49 GMT

Looking at Robert's 200m free splits they remind me of the sort of splits I was doing before someone convinced me that I could take it out harder and just how hard and "painful" a 200 is supposed to be. When I really went after it and ignored the fact I felt like I was dying I dropped several seconds. But I also realized the 200 is really unpleasant! Yea, I heard an elite swimmer say that he was blacking out in the last 50 of his 200. I've never gone there.....yet.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Wed, 28 May 2008 13:44:42 GMT

Thanks Ian, I will try the "few strokes of fly, switch to free" approach in workout. I don't know that I'll give up my selective skipping approach entirely as I feel that our workouts often fall into the almost continuous and therefore medium speed category. Most people on my team seem to think that getting more than 15s of rest is too much, I don't know how many times I've told people if you think you're getting too much rest you aren't swimming hard enough! When I swim on my own I often do this workout: WU: 10x100m free, alt swim and pull 1000m of fly work with fins: 5x50m one arm fly - 25m right, 25m left focusing on some technique point 5x50m of N right, N left, rest of the way full for N=5,4,3,2,1 500m full fly in mostly twenty-fives, some fifties near race pace with lots of rest holding technique WD: 200m easy free I could never do that amount of fly without the fins. I do worry about becoming a fin addict but so far it seems to be helping with being able to do enough repetitions to solidify the technique changes I am working on. Hmm, as I think about it, I often do those 25m flys on about 18s, and the last few 50m flys I've done have been around 36s when I concentrate on technique (my best time last year, just going for it was 34.67LCM so this is a little discouraging) which makes me wonder if maybe I've trained-in a particular tempo. Maybe if I concentrate on doing 17 and then 16 for 25m my races will start coming in more where I would like? To throw in a token on-topic thought, if one thinks of fly as analogous to an inefficient freestyle technique in terms energy requirements, which I think makes sense, then the faster drop off in times that one sees for fly would likely occur for someone with an inefficient "power through it" freestyle, so it could be that Robert (and I) have such severe drop offs because of inefficient technique rather than because we are drop dead sprinters. Looking at Robert's 200m free splits they remind me of the sort of splits I was doing before someone convinced me that I could take it out harder and just how hard and "painful" a 200 is supposed to be. When I really went after it and ignored the fact I felt like I was dying I dropped several seconds. But I also realized the 200 is really unpleasant! Perhaps Robert is also being overly conservative. Similarly I took a few seconds off my 100 when I stopped trying to pace the first 50 and treated it more like a 50m race with more breaths followed by 25m of really go for it, followed by 25m of give it everything you've got left. I think non-late-bloomers sometimes take the ability to swim through the "pain" they acquired when younger for granted and underestimate how much of a barrier this is for a late-onset swimmer whose every natural instinct is to pace to avoid "dying".

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

aquaFeisty — Wed, 28 May 2008 08:46:06 GMT

Back to your original question, my IM is comparable in speed to yours. For what it's worth, here's my splits from an unrested SCM meet last December. Colburn, Carrie 33 Nwsc-Im-IL 3:07.38 42.23 1:33.31 (51.08) 2:26.74 (53.43) 3:07.38 (40.64) I am not a flyer or a backstroker or (anymore) a breaststroker. I am definitely a drop dead sprinter. Perhaps the 200 IM is not my strong suit? :) But it is a fun race. By comparison, my 200 free is somewhere in the upper 2:30's for SCM, though it's been a looooong time since I've swam it SCM. I think you killed yourself with that fly split. Make sure you breathe enough on the fly!! It is so tempting to take it out without enough air. Then it just looks like you paid for it on the rest of your race. You should really think about swimming the 50 fly at your next meet! I bet you might surprise yourself. :)

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

aquaFeisty — Wed, 28 May 2008 08:27:10 GMT

Why is it that I can qualify for the 50m free, be 6 sec off in the 100, 25 sec off in the 200, and 65 sec off in the 400? If it were only technique, I would think the percentage to be equal. Conclusions? Don't know that you can really draw conclusions from this info. Are these LCM times? There is no turn in a 50. If you have crappy turns, they're going to bite you more as you swim longer races. Do you not breathe in the 50 (or not much?) Maybe you have a badly integrated breath that kills you on longer swims. Do you 6-beat kick the 50, but then the oxygen drain annihilates you on longer swims and you're down to a barely visible flutter on the 400? You probably are a sprinter, like Ande says. Didn't you say once that you ran the 200 and 400 in track? So you're likely very strong. While Paul is right that no one can be at the top while muscling out distances, I totally agree with Kirk. Especially for those of us who do not have a swimming background, you can muscle through shorter races a lot more than the longer ones. I betcha you're relying on your strength and natural athleticism (and running background) in the 50 and inefficiency is hurting you in the longer events. I'd work on technique, but more importantly, holding technique when your body is failing... ie., descending sets, maintaining stroke count, coming up past the flags off every turn, sticking with your breathing pattern, keeping your kick at whatever cadence you're shooting for, etc etc at the END of workout...

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

rtodd — Wed, 28 May 2008 07:15:00 GMT

Those splits look like a much better balanced swim. Fly and free are close together like someone else mentioned and your *** is real good. I think I need to learn how to *** tired. I think *** is tuff when you are tired.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:11:54 GMT

Bernard, despite whatever advantage he may have in "muscle," is an elite swimmer primarily because of his efficiency in the water. Among other things...

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

Former Member — Tue, 27 May 2008 14:04:35 GMT

I have been trying to work on speed for fly, in fact I'm finding it hard to swim it anything but fast! Lindsay, I have found there is a "stall speed" for fly - you have to go at a certain speed (not EZ) in order not to flounder. To work on technique for fly, use fins - you will have easier speed and can work on stroke. Also, one-arm fly is one of the drills that actually works for stroke improvement. To do a decent 50 fly (age relative), you don't have to do much actual fly training - rather than sit out sets, swim 3 or 4 stokes on each length then switch to free. Build up the number of fly strokes/length as your technique/fitness improve. As for 100/200 fly, the fall-off in times for the over 40's is far greater than for free even if technique is perfect. Distance fly is tough. Ian

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

mctrusty — Tue, 27 May 2008 11:51:51 GMT

you're probably spending too much time on technique I'd work on speed, SDK and conditioning I'm going to do something that my wife hates -- agreeing while seeming to disagree. I think that it's important to focus some time on technique... say, maybe on your warmup/recovery sets or set aside one day per week for it. That being said, you don't really figure out whether your technique is improving without doing fast/hard swims. IMO, the best time to find out how effective your technique is is during the back half of a tough set or swim, when your muscles are burning and you just want to finish. Awareness becomes pretty acute in those moments, and if you focus that hyper-awareness on the technique you've been working on instead of on your pain, it pays nicely.

RE: IMer's I need a 200m IM split diagnosis

ande — Tue, 27 May 2008 11:31:40 GMT

you're a drop dead sprinter Why is it that I can qualify for the 50m free, be 6 sec off in the 100, 25 sec off in the 200, and 65 sec off in the 400? If it were only technique, I would think the percentage to be equal. Conclusions?