TYR sues Speedo

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Thu, 22 May 2008 11:42:43 GMT

So much for capitalism, this pretty much sums it up. Insanely anti-American argument. I can't believe anyone can actually argue this type of lunacy. Let's figure this out. A manufacturer has a product people want but can't keep up with demand so they stop sending the product out until they have enough to supply. Of course, the subsequent total lack of supply erodes all demand and the manufacturer is subsequently put out of business or forced to unload the product at any price. That's some kind of system, benefits no one, harms everyone. Sporting bodies and organizations are not democracies and they don't operate internally on a supply and demand basis. They make their own rules. Participants consent to the rules of their competition. If you don't like the rules. Tough. Another bogus argument. I guess if you exclude the 99.9% of the time you actually spend training versus competing, then your point is valid. I can't stand this mess - you feel that we should all have equal shots, I obviously feel you do what it takes to win. Whatever it takes to win? Like PEDs? Such as hiring a hitman to take out your main rival's kneecap? Life's not fair right? Where do you draw the line exactly? There are thousands if not tens of thousands of products that not everyone has the opportunity to purchase, regardless of price. Opportunity is irrelevant. scyfreestyler can't buy the same car that I can due to CA's emission standards. The Chinese can't buy some technology items that I can easily get. I can't get a decent tomato for 8 months of the year, but Californians probably can. That's nice. But what does any of this have to do with sporting bodies enacting rules? This pertains to managed sports competition. It's not a free market.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Thu, 22 May 2008 09:18:31 GMT

A favorite forum device, the Slippery Slope. It was not a slippery slope. It was a question. Not a statement. "Do what it takes to win" is a provocative statement if left open ended. I wanted clarification on where exactly his limits stood because he didn't provide it. He since has.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

aquageek — Thu, 22 May 2008 07:53:06 GMT

Whatever it takes to win? Like PEDs? Such as hiring a hitman to take out your main rival's kneecap? Life's not fair right? Where do you draw the line exactly? Let's draw the line at felonies and misdemeanors, ok? Wearing a swimsuit is neither, well most suits in most jurisdictions anyway. This obviously demands that gull post the most famous swimsuit ever on this forum, that being Speedo Man. Bring it on, gull!

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Thu, 22 May 2008 06:45:30 GMT

They'll be on ebay soon enough. Just beware, they aren't LSR's made by Speedoh. You mean "Speeduh". Right?

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Thu, 22 May 2008 05:04:12 GMT

Here’s some more fuel for this inferno of a controversy: :blah: www.sfgate.com/.../article.cgi Along with reader’s mostly negative comments (warmly received as I'm such a dedicated opponent of the suit technology craze): :applaud: www.sfgate.com/.../view Happy swimming Dolphin 2

RE: TYR sues Speedo

mctrusty — Thu, 22 May 2008 02:30:39 GMT

Whatever it takes to win? Like PEDs? Such as hiring a hitman to take out your main rival's kneecap? Life's not fair right? Where do you draw the line exactly? A favorite forum device, the Slippery Slope.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:52:02 GMT

Lindsay - why does that bother you? It seems to me if you have the money and connections, you should maximize your potential. I'm not at all down with this lowest common denominator approach to gear and apparel. I tend to think about what the basic principals are and at this point I don't understand what the potential being maximized is here. Are swimming competitions supposed to be about swimmers competing on swimming ability or about suit makers competing on technology or about swimmers competing on disposable income? The rule about suits being available to all competitors makes sense to me as it creates a more level playing field. There has to be a trade off between the idea of a level playing field and the inherently unequal nature of the world so you have to decide where you can make it level and where you can't. That's what rules are for. The lanes should all be the same length for example. Or perhaps you should be able to maximize your potential by buying a 2% shorter lane? The Texas Sr Circuit meet pool was short by 3cm or 0.06% which is minuscule compared to the 2% advantage the LZR is supposed to give but they are throwing out all the results from the Texas meet. How do you reconcile that? Off the cuff I can't come up with any argument for expensive high-tech suits that doesn't apply to using, for example, fins. I don't like that inconsistancy. But rules are often arbitrary, so as long as the rules are applied universally I'm ok with that. And I don't like the accessibility implications of expensive suits. So I would prefer to see more standardized suits and perhaps even a requirement that they have to be available to anyone at a maximum price. But that's a personal preference, I would be satisfied if the current rules were adhered to. And don't bother with the wool suit argument, progress is fine with me as long as it doesn't gratuitously result in an unlevel playing field. As soon as anyone can buy an LZR without having to have a connection at Speedo then I won't get upset. I just don't understand how one can argue that the FINA availability rule was being observed at FINA Worlds.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 14:59:15 GMT

As was mentioned in another thread there were a couple swimmers at Masters Worlds that were wearing LZRs and won their events. No one can say whether they would have won anyway but it seems very wrong to me that they had a significant advantage. As far as I know Speedo was not lending suits to all comers at Worlds, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't see how the rule has any meaning at all if it isn't even applied at FINA Worlds.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 12:49:53 GMT

They'll be on ebay soon enough. Just beware, they aren't LSR's made by Speedoh.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

aquageek — Wed, 21 May 2008 11:04:11 GMT

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 09:09:16 GMT

Geek, I want your eight thousand dollar bicycle that was blessed by Lance Armstrong. I'll send you some fresh veggies in the off season as trade.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 08:39:44 GMT

Even if the suit were available, people would be byatching about it just like wet suits. Controversy is good for swimsuit sales and driving up demand. Hard to ever have a level playing field, as Geek notes. Even on race day, there are huge differences. What if someone is sick or injured or couldn't sleep that night or their plane got in late or they had no chance to get used to the bulkhead or their suit ripped or ballooned or their coach wasn't there or they had to swim back to back events or they drown in the wake of sandbaggers or they swam in an outside lane or whatever ... So while the pool itself might be the same, other conditions of competition are inherently unequal. Fortress- Agreed, on all points. What I will say is there are aspects of competition that give the strongest/fastest a benefit, those are not unavailable to everyone in the competition. ANYONE can get the inside lanes by entering the fastest time. ANYONE can have suit issues--technical suit or basic brief or tank. If a competitor chooses to fly in on the red-eye for a meet, then he/she must contend with the impact of the decision made. That is not unfair advantage to other competitors, it is an individual choice. Things that are inherently individual do not make competition unequal--they are the reason we compete in the first place. Agreed that controvery drives demand. Agreed that demad drives cost (just for you Geek!). No one is claiming that the controvery and demand are bad for Speedo. They can charge what they want for the suit, and if people see it as a value (to them) they have every right to buy it, use it, and win or loose races in it. If the price is prohibitive to some, so be it (yes, this is America & I love capitalism)--but the opportunity for everyone to buy it and use it in competition (not just pre-order) should be there. Currently, it is not. If everyone at Olympic Trials gets one to wear, then the choice to use it or not is their own. Masters do not have that option today.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 08:29:32 GMT

While intent is arguably unknowable the obvious intent for the rule would be to prevent suit makers or federations from creating competitive advantages for one swimmer over another. I think if AUSSI Swimming had struck a deal with Speedo for exclusive access to the LZR at the Olympics that the rest of the world would rightly take issue with that. What happened at FINA Worlds doesn't seem fundamentally different than that to me. If the manufacturer can't meet demand the suit should not be in use until they have enough stock that everyone who wants one (or minimally can afford one) can get one. In what sense are fins active devices? They just passively sit on your feet. As soon as the feet move you know that fins multiply propulsion compared to bare feet. So I suppose they are passive in that they don't have batteries or another power source - but they are clearly a performance enhancement. I disagree that the suit should not be in use until everyone who wants one can have it. How do you define "wants one?" I want a FSPro but I'm not willing to pay how much they ask for it. Who knows exactly what FINA meant by that rule. But I assume Speedo has enough LZRs to provide to all swimmers at elite level events who want to use the suit. Only if Speedo overtly denies the suit at such a meet is it a problem. FS Pros were in short supply for a while too. Is FINA supposed to say "a new suit can't be used until there a 100,000 available?"

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 07:00:57 GMT

My argument confuses nothing. There are vast differences between pools and coaches and facilities throughout the nation. That is no different that a swimsuit. Actually it does and it is. When you show up at a meet your lane is the same width and length as all the other lanes in that competition. The conditions under which you have to compete are the same as everyone else's so the "field is level". There is a difference between saying that the conditions of competition should be the same and saying that all the players have to have trained under the same conditions.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:53:46 GMT

There are probably not enough FSII or FSPro suits for every competitor that might participate in FINA competition. Do you believe there are 150,000 of these suits in stock right now? I don't. Even fewer TYR suits. The LZR is in very limited supply right now. As long as Speedo doesn't ration them in a discriminatory way they probably comply with the intent of the FINA rule. As for fins -there is a huge difference between fins and swimsuits. Fins are an active device that increases propulsion. There is every reason to prohibit them, just like paddles or any similar device. A suit is passive. You wear it. Some say the LZR creates flotation (which I consider active behavior) but that hasn't been proven at all. While intent is arguably unknowable the obvious intent for the rule would be to prevent suit makers or federations from creating competitive advantages for one swimmer over another. I think if AUSSI Swimming had struck a deal with Speedo for exclusive access to the LZR at the Olympics that the rest of the world would rightly take issue with that. What happened at FINA Worlds doesn't seem fundamentally different than that to me. If the manufacturer can't meet demand the suit should not be in use until they have enough stock that everyone who wants one (or minimally can afford one) can get one. In what sense are fins active devices? They just passively sit on your feet.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:35:06 GMT

OK, I understand, but why does that make people all crazed? People get upset because of the appearance that the rules are not applied fairly. Basically your argument confuses a level playing field with identical players. A level field doesn't imply or require that all the players are identical.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:17:20 GMT

I agree with ehoch on this point. Nothing at all against tech suits, or the crazy price tags on the new ones. Sure, it will be a while before I'm ready to drop $500 on a suit, but that's a personal choice. Economic considerations for using/ not using a tech suit do not come into play here. The fact is, the LZR is NOT available to everyone (for purchase & immediate use). Level playing field is not the point--perceived equity is. At USMS SC nationals Josh Davis had some awesome swims. He also wore an LZR. No doubt, his swims would have been awesome without the suit and the final standings in his age group would be the same. Given the LZR was only available to a select few swimmers, and not the general swimming public, was it fair for him to be allowed to use the suit? Do other swimmers in his age group feel cheated out of equitable competition? If the suit were available to everyone for purchase and use, I don't think we would be having this discussion at all. People could make their own decision about the value of any performance benefit the suit may provide. Since it is not, Speedo/ FINA is fueling controversy by allowing its use.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:16:41 GMT

RE: TYR sues Speedo

knelson — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:05:03 GMT

How do you define "wants one?" You don't have to because that's not how the rule is worded. The rule says the suit must be available to all competitors. As ehoch proved the LZR is not available to all competitors until at least September.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

aquageek — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:00:08 GMT

Tim Shead in a LZR(I believe,I wasn't at SCY Nats,but I know he had one at Worlds) beat Rick Colella in the 200 BR by .05 sec.Tim and Rick are both amazing swimmers,but was it fair? Yes, it's fair. As fair as life gets anyway.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Allen Stark — Wed, 21 May 2008 05:53:25 GMT

I am beginning to agree with Lindsay.It isn't a matter of economics,it is a matter of connections.If I do or don't want to spend $550 on a suit it is my right.If I want to spend $550 on a suit,but I can't until Sept 30,and a guy with connections and the suit beats me at Nats,is that fair.Tim Shead in a LZR(I believe,I wasn't at SCY Nats,but I know he had one at Worlds) beat Rick Colella in the 200 BR by .05 sec.Tim and Rick are both amazing swimmers,but was it fair?

RE: TYR sues Speedo

Former Member — Wed, 21 May 2008 05:29:03 GMT

Aquageek --- all good points, but only for after September 30th. You can not get the suit - it is that simple. I will give you my size and an extra $20, and you can get us the suits for the next meet.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

aquageek — Wed, 21 May 2008 05:06:33 GMT

There are thousands if not tens of thousands of products that not everyone has the opportunity to purchase, regardless of price. Opportunity is irrelevant. scyfreestyler can't buy the same car that I can due to CA's emission standards. The Chinese can't buy some technology items that I can easily get. I can't get a decent tomato for 8 months of the year, but Californians probably can. I think it's really a case of preschool economics by those that advocate the curtailing of basic economic principles. That being, if I can't have it, no one else should be able to have it either.

RE: TYR sues Speedo

The Fortress — Wed, 21 May 2008 04:51:44 GMT

Fortress- Agreed, on all points. What I will say is there are aspects of competition that give the strongest/fastest a benefit, those are not unavailable to everyone in the competition. ANYONE can get the inside lanes by entering the fastest time. ANYONE can have suit issues--technical suit or basic brief or tank. If a competitor chooses to fly in on the red-eye for a meet, then he/she must contend with the impact of the decision made. That is not unfair advantage to other competitors, it is an individual choice. Things that are inherently individual do not make competition unequal--they are the reason we compete in the first place. Agreed that controvery drives demand. Agreed that demad drives cost (just for you Geek!). No one is claiming that the controvery and demand are bad for Speedo. They can charge what they want for the suit, and if people see it as a value (to them) they have every right to buy it, use it, and win or loose races in it. If the price is prohibitive to some, so be it (yes, this is America & I love capitalism)--but the opportunity for everyone to buy it and use it in competition (not just pre-order) should be there. Currently, it is not. If everyone at Olympic Trials gets one to wear, then the choice to use it or not is their own. Masters do not have that option today. I think you should be kicked off the island because you have too many fastskins already. :joker: Personally, I'd like to sue Speedo for not having a big bold disclaimer that the Pro rips like crazy -- no matter how careful you are. Or a superscript underneath the tall skinny model saying "results not typical" to account for those with hips. lol Not crazy about the moral undertones of the debate either. I read in USMS that Dave Holland's "moral compass" wouldn't allow him to wear a wet suit. Sheesh -- that's overdoing it. (sorry Chris)

RE: TYR sues Speedo

aquageek — Wed, 21 May 2008 04:33:55 GMT

FS Pros were in short supply for a while too. Is FINA supposed to say "a new suit can't be used until there a 100,000 available?" Yes, they should say this...in progressive countries like Cuba, N. Korea and Burma, or whatever they call it these days.