Austin National times from splits

RE: Austin National times from splits

Kathy Casey — Thu, 15 May 2008 02:12:01 GMT

Jim is correct. Your splits, including relay lead-off splits, will automatically be submitted for USMS Top 10. Those splits count as official times and you can view your split times on the meet results. As one of you noted, that also happened at the Federal Way meet. Three things have to be in place for splits from nationals to be automatically recorded as official times for USMS purposes: 1. the technology has to be available to search and record all splits except for splits from individual backstroke events and disqualifications, 2. the officials have to agree to watch all relays for a second swimmer starting in the water, and 3. a written request has to be submitted for all splits for all swimmers from all events except individual backstroke events and disqualifications. This is within the rules. It is not required for nationals. It is an option. Some meet hosts find it easier to process all the splits rather than a 100 or so. Some officials find it easier to watch all relays for a second swimmer starting in the water than to consciously watch a few specific relays for that. This is a cooperative effort among the meet host, the officials, and the technology/results team, and all must agree or it doesn’t happen. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

RE: Austin National times from splits

Doug Martin — Mon, 12 May 2008 10:50:05 GMT

Heard anything about the posting of splits, either for the meet results or top ten? The first time I heard of Walt's tool to extract all splits that don't need referee confirmation for top ten consideration was in the pre-meet meeting at Austin. We were told there that split requests weren't required, and that was news to me as well as to others. If I hear any more details, I'll post here.

RE: Austin National times from splits

chowmi — Mon, 12 May 2008 08:04:23 GMT

This is awesome news! What a bonus for leading off on SMU's "C" medley relay. It all started with "Michelle, can you swim backstroke?" And I juuuust might make top ten in the 50 back....it'll be close!! Don't want to press my luck...but here goes....never hurts to ask....what's the story on Austin National times & splits for USA-S SWIMS? I emailed Ann Nellis back with my USA number; is anything else required? My 50 free split from the 100 is not reflected in SWIMS as of today.

RE: Austin National times from splits

Former Member — Wed, 07 May 2008 16:20:22 GMT

Jim, I filled out a split verification form for my first 500 of my 1000 - it was a very fast 500 for me. They also tried to talk me out of completing the form. I would love to have that split show up in the meet results. Please let us know if this can be resolved. BTW - it was great visiting with you last weekend! Robin

RE: Austin National times from splits

knelson — Wed, 07 May 2008 12:34:22 GMT

But unless that's the rule applied at all meets, I'm certainly not in favor of it. My take is that it's nice to have the splits be 'automatic,' but you shouldn't assume they are. If you think you might set a record, get a top ten time, etc. you should always inquire at the clerk of course table whether or not you need to submit an actual split request. They probably get sick of answering the same question over and over, but oh well.

RE: Austin National times from splits

Jeff Commings — Wed, 07 May 2008 12:20:39 GMT

I didn't think to do this last year in Federal Way for my 50 back leadoff split on the medley relay, and then I saw the time I did listed in the Top 10. So I didn't do anything this year.

RE: Austin National times from splits

Former Member — Wed, 07 May 2008 06:59:20 GMT

How come? I received the same response that Meldyck received - that it was not necessary to complete the split verification form because they would automatically be submitting splits for Top Ten recognition. For me, Top Ten is really not the concern - I just would like to have the split count for an official time. Robin

RE: Austin National times from splits

That Guy — Wed, 07 May 2008 01:36:41 GMT

They also tried to talk me out of completing the form. How come?

RE: Austin National times from splits

Former Member — Tue, 06 May 2008 12:05:32 GMT

For individual freestyle, breaststroke, and butterfly (and the IM butterfly leadoff), you can request an initial split at any time before the end of the meet. 103.13.1B(1). Patrick, it is apparently (we'll see if it works out that way!) this part that has changed as a result of Walt Reid's new contribution. I was forcefully told at the clerk of course table that I needn't fill out a form to have a split considered for Top Ten but, if I was old fashioned, I could anyway. So, I filled out one form and left one split unrequested to see if the automatic system would indeed work.

RE: Austin National times from splits

pakman044 — Tue, 06 May 2008 10:41:31 GMT

Patrick, it is apparently (we'll see if it works out that way!) this part that has changed as a result of Walt Reid's new contribution. I was forcefully told at the clerk of course table that I needn't fill out a form to have a split considered for Top Ten but, if I was old fashioned, I could anyway. So, I filled out one form and left one split unrequested to see if the automatic system would indeed work. There's no reason you couldn't do it this way for individual free, ***, fly, and IM leadoffs, since nothing special has to be observed and paid attention to. That being said, just like in USA Swimming, the rule does indicate that for the time to be official, the split must be requested: 103.13.1 An official time shall be achieved in a USMS-sanctioned competition or -recognized event in accordance with all applicable rules. It may be achieved in: ... B An initial distance within a longer event or relay, provided the swimmer: (1) Notifies the meet referee in writing of the intent to record an initial split time prior to the conclusion of the meet, (2) Makes the written request prior to the swim for relay leadoff splits and for initial backstroke distances in individual backstroke events, (3) Completes the initial distance with a legal finish and (4) Completes the event without being disqualified. And 105.2.2B also says that "n an individual event other than backstroke, the request to have a split time recorded is brought in writing to the attention of the meet referee prior to the conclusion of the meet" Now why should it matter if this process is being expedited to make things go quicker and easier? The concern I would have is that this ought to be applied to EVERY meet, not just Nationals or some meets. Otherwise, it's not really fair or equitable--and I'm not particularly sure that electronic results (i.e., CL2/HY3 or Meet Manager backups) are available for every meet, which means that some meets would need split request forms and some wouldn't. But don't get me wrong--I think this is a good idea in the grand scheme of things that makes for a better consideration to Top 10 times. But unless that's the rule applied at all meets, I'm certainly not in favor of it. Patrick King

RE: Austin National times from splits

Former Member — Tue, 06 May 2008 09:07:34 GMT

I was informed the same confusing message regarding relay lead offs by one of the officials. They said that the officials at the timing table would automatically record the splits for verification and log them accordingly and that I didn't need to do anything. Then the next day I was told to fill out a paper with the event and time to submit to them for verification. I have no idea what will happen now. John Smith

RE: Austin National times from splits

Former Member — Tue, 06 May 2008 08:23:09 GMT

Michelle, I had the same experience. From my conversations with Jim Matysek, it seems as though Walt Reid has written a program that will parse the results and automatically submit the split times for Top Ten consideration. I filled out ONE split form, just in case, but have another that would be good if the automatic procedure works for which I did not submit a form. That will be a good test of whether the system works. If your time from the individual swim really does show up in the Top Ten list, then hopefully you shouldn't have a problem using it for USAS verification. As for the relay leadoff splits, I was told that those still needed to be done on paper, with advance notification to the meet officials.

RE: Austin National times from splits

chowmi — Tue, 06 May 2008 08:12:32 GMT

Here is the email response from Ann: "Yes, they will be submitted- it's just taking a little extra time. I think we should be able to add you to the SWIMS database list. It will let you know onlyl if we can not! -Ann" So it looks really promising. I'll try to post another entry if and when I see my event posted to SWIMS.

RE: Austin National times from splits

pakman044 — Tue, 06 May 2008 07:44:48 GMT

For individual freestyle, breaststroke, and butterfly (and the IM butterfly leadoff), you can request an initial split at any time before the end of the meet. 103.13.1B(1). For individual backstroke, you MUST request your initial split BEFORE the heat. 103.13.1B(2). This is identical to USA Swimming rules (the turn judge must make sure you execute a legal backstroke finish at the initial distance). For relay takeoffs, all takeoff requests must be made BEFORE your heat (103.13.1B(2)). In addition, the second swimmer may NOT start in the water (103.13.1D). And finally, the relay must be completed without disqualification, a distinct difference from USA Swimming rules (103.13.1C) (i.e., if there's an early takeoff violation or stroke infraction in a subsequent leg, your leadoff split does not count). For NTV/OVC/USA Swimming observations, that's up to the LSC that's observing the meet and whether or not the meet is being swim observed (only the swims requested up front are observed) or blanket observed (all swims observed, and then non-USA-S swimmers removed). In order for your observed swim to count, you have to provide your USA Swimming ID number, but I think it can vary whether it may or must happen before/during/after the meet. I can empathize how painful getting a split entered can be (I did this at a meet in April, and no one knew what I was trying to do). It may be good in the future if someone summarizes the split rules and inserts this in the meet information on site. Patrick King

RE: Austin National times from splits

chowmi — Tue, 06 May 2008 05:43:19 GMT

Thank you guys for your input. I was watching one of the Smith's 100 free(?) 46.8 or 46.7 (?) split that was noted as a record, and it is not (yet?) submitted to event rankings (aka current top times), so I took that as a good sign that splits were not uploaded yet, or that they may not be before the final compilation of top tens. I hope, I hope my time counts - it maaaayyyyy be a current #1 time; can't find any faster swims in SWIMS and just YMCA Masters Nationals to go!!! And it is so ironic that I am trying to get USMS times to count for USA -S when all I want to do is swim those 50's ---- to turn around and have them count for USMS again!! heehee!!!