Sandbaggers' Club

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:45:45 GMT

Let me ponder this. World poverty vs. old swimmer who lies about seed times for a multitude of selfish reasons. Hmmmmm. By golly, you are correct. World poverty is more important. You win agian. Mr. Alias

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:28:16 GMT

Sandbagging is a very selfish action. But hey, if it makes you feel good, might as well do it. After all being old, tired, broken, and grumpy gives you the right.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:44:54 GMT

Swim close to the time you submit. If you lie to swim fast in non-turbulent water you are a cheater. Your ribbon should be taken away.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:10:34 GMT

It doesn't happen often, but I have been confused with the Olympian Tom Jager, who both spells and pronounces his name differently than I. This is to set the record straight that if you see an average backstroker entered in a meet, it is not a case of a former Olympian sandbagging or stealth-entering.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:32:35 GMT

Sandbagging is a very selfish action. Nonsense! There are so many worse evils in the world, this is hardly worth responding to. "Very selfish?" Uh, really over-exaggerating here. It is utterly commonplace and not on the level of world poverty. Go start your own thread, Mr. Alias. :mooning:

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:51:33 GMT

Sorry, I find the idea of changing your entry time because you want more rest or because you want better pool conditions (or want to show off) among the most odious of actions. You are taking the process of seeding--intended to provide fair and equitable competition--and perverting it for your own purposes by overtly trying to gain a competitive advantage. Take the order of events you get and then put down a performance that will have people singing songs about your glorious destruction of the field when you trash 5 straight events. Patrick King First, of all, this thread is the Sandbaggers' Club, not the Criticism of All Inherently Evil Sandbaggers. Start a new thread for your complaints. Your quoted comment is BS, IMHO. I don't know anyone who NTs an event for the "glorious destruction" of heat 1. Absolutely no one. I think this is a mythical construct with no basis in reality held over the head of sandbaggers in an attempt to guilt them into what others deem appropriate behavior. I also have no idea why it is "odious" to want more rest. The order of events is often undesirable, and can have a disproportionate impact on certain swimmers. (And frequently the order of events is the same year after year.) After you have trained your ass off and invested a lot of time and effort and money in getting to a meet, perhaps impinging on family time or events in the process, is it really "odious" to want to do as well as you can? Sorry, I don't buy it. Also, in my most recent meet, the women were done way before the men, and had much less rest. And the older you get, the more rest your need. So some 25 year old criticizing me for wanting more rest is not really going to bother me for a nanosecond. When they're my age, maybe they'll understand. The point is that there are already so many inequities built into meets, do we have to begrudge people more rest? Just seems really petty to me. As scyfreestyler said, we're all adults. I don't think sandbaggers need to be "outted" as Lindsay suggests. If masters swimmers aren't permitted to factor in their own life situations and physical issues, that would be truly unfortunate and likely discourage competing.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:32:51 GMT

At USMS Nationals, the meet director is actually allowed to change the entry times of those swimmers he feels are sandbagging: Article 104.5.5.A (11): If a swimmer enters a deck-seeded event with a time significantly slower than his/her recently recorded time, the meet director may, after notifying the swimmer, change the seeded time to a realistic time.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:19:34 GMT

Deleted.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:09:53 GMT

"Indeed, some would think hiding behind an alias to call someone old and odious and a liar might itself be a bit odious. " Does it rise to the level of World Poverty?

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:02:14 GMT

Since I started this thread as a joke, and it has not been treated as such, I decided to end it on Jaegermeister's funny post.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Donna — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:41:10 GMT

The reason I only swim the 1650/1500 3 times a year (once in each course) is because it is too painful! I have only been back to swimming 4 years and was a sprinter in my youth. Who would have thought me a distance swimmer. This season I changed teams, swimming with the kids for 9 months doing doubles, Rick Benner as my coach, had already dropped lots of time in my events. Lots of stroke corrections and hard work, as well as sprints for once in my adult life. Can he turn this old lady with a bad back, into an under 21 minute miler and an under 1 minute 100 freestyler? Let's see. I hope I am a BIG SANDBAGGER this time around!

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:33:36 GMT

At USMS Nationals, the meet director is actually allowed to change the entry times of those swimmers he feels are sandbagging: Then maybe the meet director can fix ande's typo since he's seeded about 5 seconds too slow in a 50! Since my entries are all either exact time, faster than recent times or close to my bests upon entry, I think I'm fine. I don't really understand why someone would sandbag in Nationals anyway when there is typically a lot of rest unless you happen to have back-to-back events. Which I do, because I am a fly-backer. Perhaps one year the 100 and 200 free or the 50 and 100 free can be back-to-back instead. :violin: :dunno: So the freestylers can have less rest for a change.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:32:34 GMT

Here we go, here's the one I was thinking of. It was the 9/9/07 Patriot Games pentathlon in Camas, WA. It said "Entering sandbagged times to get added rest time between events or calm water is discouraged. Please be fair to all." This one didn't threaten disqualification, that was the first one I posted.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:24:39 GMT

It was the 9/23/07 pentathlon at oak harbor, WA. And I mis-remembered. It didn't mention sandbagging, it mentioned abusing the disqualification system. They added penalties to your cumulative pentathlon time if you were DQ'd in various events. I assume this rule was to prevent people from say, swimming freestyle during a breaststroke event, etc. "Swimmers who try to abuse the disqualification system will be eliminated from the competition."

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:20:01 GMT

Interesting, it was a meet director that changed my entry time to an NT. And how exactly do you define sandbagging? How far off what time? I'm not sure, it's probably a grey area up to the discretion of the meet director, along with things like unsportsmanlike conduct. This example was just specifically for the pentathlon, where everyone who wanted to shoot for the pentathlon placing was in the same events.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:13:41 GMT

All I ask is that you swim close to your seed times. If you feel the need to warm up/down after/before a race, and there is no warm-up pool, knock yourself out. Just seed and swim accordingly. It does affect other swimmers when you lie about your time and then smoke them in thier heat. If you do it to win or set a record that is indeed odious. Gee whilickers, I'm not the one calling a community of masters swimmers selfish, lying and evil.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:11:54 GMT

The "by golly" and "you win again" are words previously used by Geek, FYI, although Mr. Alias definitely sounds like another frequent poster as well. I have a very good memory for someone so old and broken down. Who do you think it is?

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:09:26 GMT

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:08:05 GMT

I guess I could be accused of sandbagging most of the time at Nationals. I only swim the 1650/1500 3 times a year and each year I seem to take a minute off my time. But the time I put in is usually a converted time from the last time I swam the event. I plan to repeat this again this year, my 1500 SCM was 21:51 and I entered 21:55 for Nat's but I hope to go under 21 minutes. But hoping does not mean I have done it or will do it. I am also hoping to drop 16 seconds in my 500. Just call me a BIG SANDBAGGER!:agree::thhbbb: Entering your previous time? That's not sandbagging. "Only" swimming the mile 3 times a year? Now THAT'S sandbagging!:laugh2: (Other than in open water races, I haven't done a 1500 OR a 1650 in over 20 years. Too painful!)

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:38:26 GMT

I guess I could be accused of sandbagging most of the time at Nationals. I only swim the 1650/1500 3 times a year and each year I seem to take a minute off my time. But the time I put in is usually a converted time from the last time I swam the event. I plan to repeat this again this year, my 1500 SCM was 21:51 and I entered 21:55 for Nat's but I hope to go under 21 minutes. But hoping does not mean I have done it or will do it. I am also hoping to drop 16 seconds in my 500. Just call me a BIG SANDBAGGER!:agree::thhbbb: BIG SANDBAGGER!! You're supposed to enter what you think you'll go apparently. "Knock yourself out" --- another Geekism. Have to admit I kinda like that one though. No need to worry, Mr. Alias. I never swam the NT'd event. So no one suffered any trauma or "odium." I think this is another ridiculous use of the word "odium" as well. Gee willikers, I can think of many other more suitable examples of odious behavior. Indeed, some would think hiding behind an alias to call someone old and odious and a liar might itself be a bit odious.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Donna — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:20:11 GMT

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:12:14 GMT

Don't swim back-to-back events if you lack super-human endurance. I think this whole business will settle itself with peer pressure, announcers making fun of blatant sandbaggers (as someone else mentioned), etc. One meet I went to a earlier this year was a pentathlon and I think the entry form said something about the meet director could DQ you for sandbagging to get more rest. I'll try to find that form. Interesting, it was a meet director that changed my entry time to an NT and suggested the change. And how exactly do you define sandbagging? How far off what time? If someone enters reasonably around a time they might expect to go at that time of year given their training, and it isn't their absolute best time, I think that's perfectly reasonable. I don't generally swim back-to-back events. Unfortunately, because some order of events are never changed, my best events often fall back to back. I also notice that since I am a fly/back-er, an unusual combo, my events often are very close. I guess I would be better off as a 5 pack freestyler. Then there would never be a rest issue as those events are all nicely spaced out. :thhbbb::thhbbb:

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

The Fortress — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:48:52 GMT

I do think that sandbagging is selfish, and I haven't seen anyone over-exaggerating it here or comparing it to world poverty or any of the myriad of other world evils. Stillwater merely pointed out that it is selfish. It is. By intentionally sandbagging, a swimmer is trying to give themselves an advantage of some sort, disregarding the impact to others. See the definition above. Well, I don't fit that definition of selfish. In fact, I feel like most of my life (swimming or non-swimimng) is the exact opposite. And I also disagree about the impact on others. I think there is very little impact. I think "lying" completely overstates what is happening as well. People may not enter at their best times for many reasons: injury, illness, poor training, lack of experience in the event, etc. Why not tar and feather those using creatine instead? We sure got a whole lot of selfish, lying, evil masters swimmers under this definition. The "by golly" and "you win again" are words previously used by Geek, FYI, although Mr. Alias definitely sounds like another frequent poster as well. I have a very good memory for someone so old and broken down.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:59:01 GMT

At any nationals/worlds meets where I'm shaved and tapered I always enter my best time, in-season meets I usually know what times I'm around and enter those. Good strategy, I think I'll do it that way. When I was younger I'd have a fit if I didn't get my fastest time at every meet, tapered or not, fast or slow pool.

RE: Sandbaggers' Club

Former Member — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:28:15 GMT

So far I have always entered with my fastest masters time, That is very respectable, but I find that sandbagging is the norm around here. I generally take my best time and add a bit. In a 100 I'll add 2-3 seconds. In a 50, maybe a second or two. 200? Probably 4-5 seconds. Interestingly enough, I have always swam PB's but often times fail to finish first in the heat. Clearly, others are sandbagging FAR more than I am. Of course, at my level, getting a choice lane assignment and clear water are the least of my worries.