World Masters Swimmers of the Year

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:17:29 GMT

Would a ribbon solve the problem? "After all, it is only masters swimming." :lmao:

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:08:52 GMT

Would a ribbon solve the problem? "After all, it is only masters swimming."

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Jeff Commings — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:11:36 GMT

As with all lists, I think the publication of our Masters Swimmers of the Year has done its job: It has started a discussion.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:17:00 GMT

on another thread something mentioned that you have to practice with a Masters team in order to get a top 10 time. isn't there a rule for getting records too? There are no restrictions on who you practice with, the restriction is that you must do the record breaking swim in a sanctioned Masters meet.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:34 GMT

OK, I will take the unpopular position for the sake of giving the Smith Brothers someone to take aim at. First, I think Susan is one of the nicest swimmers I have met at nationals. She is a pleasant and humble as she is talented. I look forward to cheering for her in Omaha. As for the criteria. The are fairly quantitative. This is good. Some of the suggestions that have been made are very subjective and would make the contest something like judging ice skating. Why go with FINA's timetable for recognizing swims and not go with the standard USMS seasons? If we were picking the USMS swimmers of the year, that would make sense. However, Swimming World (which we have no direct control over by the way) is selecting world swimmers. Part of the issue at hand is the availability of data to make the selection from. While Paul knows exactly what happened in Susan's age group, what about the others? How up to speed are you on the other 15 age groups, both men and women for SCM and LCM? The possible list of record breakers represents over 1000 events. So, why not go with the FINA top 10 list in addition to broken records. I will defer to Skip's explanation on that one - the list is not available in a timely manner. Making Olympic Trail cuts is indeed impressive. Since this is a world list, would we also count swimmers that made cuts in other countries? Again, access to that data would be challenging. No system is perfect, however I suspect you could help improve it rather than just complain about it. Jason Marsteller is a reasonable guy. I don't know him as well as Phil Whitten (who came up with this system), but he has been approachable when I have spoken with him in the past. Put together an alternative that is reasonable to achieve. Remember, we have two courses, 16 age groups and two genders to search through to make the determination and data has to be for federations outside of the US.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:39:56 GMT

Paul, Do we count trial cuts in the US only or would you propose counting trial cuts in all countries? If the latter, not all countries select their Olympic team the way we do with one meet. What would we do for swimmer from those countries? How would you get access to the information needed to make the decision? I don't disagree that Susan's achievement (and other Masters swimmers who have made trial cuts) is most impressive. I am not sure how you would quantify that achievement for the purposes of judging fairly.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:16:22 GMT

Just an FYI..... I brought this up with Susan at this mornings workout...As I thought she defendend SW and then proceeded to "chick me" in workout.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:00:42 GMT

Great attitude!!! If everyone in the world acted the way she does, we wouldn't have to have rules... Your absolutly correct Mel....nuf said.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:23:57 GMT

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:11:24 GMT

Dear Grumpy Paul, You somewhat proved my point with your last statement "the next time a 41 year old female masters swimmer from their country qualifies for their trials..". So, I ask you, are there any? Do you know for certain that there aren't other qualifiers or are you basing all your argument on anecdotal evidence. Yes, we know of one case - Susan. There might be others. This is sort of like taking a survey, but only asking one person. For that matter, how many other USMS members have trial cuts? Do you know? While I understand the timing of the current selection system (with a Oct 31 cutoff) displeases you, at least it is based on information that takes into account all the swims that are reported. The idea of including trials cuts is much harder to do this with. In some countries, trial cuts are easier than they are in the US. In some countries, they don't hold trials. If you can make the B cut, you get to go. With records, at least we come closer to comparing apples to apples. I do agree with you though that John has gotten to be a real problem.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Rich Abrahams — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:09:34 GMT

Paul, You sure are getting curmudgeonly as you approach 50. Cancel your subscription to Swimming World? Man, they just featured a Masters swimmer on the cover. How cool is that. And as great a swimmer as Susan is, I think Laura Val’s selection as the most outstanding swimmer was the absolute correct choice. She is awesome and has been for decades. Listen, I agree the selection process is confusing. I thought they were joking when they selected me as I couldn’t recall swimming one meters meet in 2007. But it is what it is and a lot of people volunteer their time to help raise the profile of our sport. One other thing. If Susan’s times in non-Masters meets should count, why shouldn’t Dara’s or Mark Foster’s, as they also compete in Masters? In my opinion I think they all should count. Men’s 35-39 SCM 50 free record 21.3! Rich

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Rich Abrahams — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:48:10 GMT

Paul, I couldn't agree with you more that Susan was one of the top female masters swimmers last year. What she has accomplished is phenomenal. In fact, as long as she is competing she'll always be one of the top regardless of whether or not she sets any new records. That isn't the point here. The fact is that Swimming World created specific criteria to try and be as objective as possible. Susan wasn't selected because she didn't fit those criteria as well as some others. If you think their system is flawed (obviously you do) you can make suggestions to change it. BTW, I plan on leading Susan's cheering section at Trials. Are you coming? Rich

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Paul Smith — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:04:04 GMT

When I talked to Susan at the Colorado State meet a couple of weeks back I was teasing her a bit about the Olympic Trials. I pointed out that she still had a chance of nailing down a spot in the 200 IM before Omaha. Her response was something like 'Are you kidding? I've already going to have enough work just to show up for these two events. Mostly I just wanted to get on deck with the other swimmers & swimming more events means I won't be able to enjoy watching as much swimming.' Last summer we were at a Mission Viejo long course meet together and I ask her how much LC training she was getting. Her reply was 'This is it.' She also gave me a beer right after I swam my last event. Great attitude!!! If everyone in the world acted the way she does, we wouldn't have to have rules... Mel...even better after she made her 2nd trials cuts in the 100 fly a few weeks back we called to congratulate her and happened to catch her between trials and finals at panda express...gotta love it! So listen...I agree that there is no perfect system but I also think certain events (such as making trials cuts) should be able to play a part in the decision making process. SW has done some nice articles on SVDL and I think we all appreciate it...but I wanted to bring this up to show how I think the system is flawed.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Paul Smith — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:52:09 GMT

Sure Mark, the next time a 41 year old female masters swimmer from another country qualifies for their trials, makes their team....or better yet can beat Susan then I would argue they should make at least the "alternate" picks from SW. And give me break on Dara and Foster.... Rich, first thing I said was that I was not taking anything away from the others selected and yes I would agree that Laura is very deserving and being on the cover is great....now I will ask you if you think Susan was not in the top 10 female masters swimmers in the world last year? Question asked, question answered. If the system SW is currently using misses that than the system is broken. And yes....I've gotten a lot meaner lately mainly due to John's cheating ways and whiny attitude!

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:55:52 GMT

Why go with FINA's timetable for recognizing swims and not go with the standard USMS seasons? If we were picking the USMS swimmers of the year, that would make sense. However, Swimming World (which we have no direct control over by the way) is selecting world swimmers. That explains a lot. Thank you. :)

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Rykno — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:39:48 GMT

just looked at the list of WRs and I found the first time for Men 25-29 to be interesting. on another thread something mentioned that you have to practice with a Masters team in order to get a top 10 time. isn't there a rule for getting records too? Stefan Nystrand only participated in the Swedish Masters Open because it was in his home town, I seriously doubt that he practiced with the Masters group for his club.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:51:37 GMT

What a joke....I agree Paul...:bitching: The only comment I can make is: Based on these time frames we know who the number one female masters swimmer will be in 2008. And given that assumption it's pretty weird that the top swimmer of 2008 who had an amazing 07 didn't even make the top 10???? I'm glad others will be upset for her. Knowing Susan like I do and I'm sure many of you know her better. Not being in the top 10 won't bother her for a second. :bow:

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:36:27 GMT

Also the critera is that it must be set in a Masters Sanctions Meet and not other meets. Many years ago there were swimmers in the Top Ten and they set many USMS Records and were faster than the listed FINA Word Record but because they did not set there records in masters meets, there swims were ignored by FINA. World Records can only be established in a Masters meet sanction by a Member. And this is written in FINA rule MSW 6.2 per FINA Rule Book. forums.usms.org/showthread.php Very sad indeed.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:26:24 GMT

Here is how we go about the initial process of creating the ballot. We collect a list of each FINA-recognized world record set at the end of the competitive year, which is defined as Nov. 1, 2006 to Oct. 31, 2007. These are based on what FINA has in its November release of its Masters world records: www.fina.org/.../rec_SC_nov07_detail.pdf www.fina.org/.../rec_LC_nov07_detail.pdf Based on these two documents, Susan finished the competitive year with 3 WRs, one in the the 100 *** on Aug. 5, 2007 and the other in the 200 IM on the same day for LCM and her 200 SCM fly on Nov. 19, 2006. The following women who made the top six based on the explanation in our article with their FINA, end of year, reported WRs. WOMEN LAURA VAL, 56, USA (8 LCM, 14 SCM) KARLYN PIPES-NEILSEN, 46, USA (10 LCM, 11 SCM) HITOMI MATSUDA, 30, JPN (5 LCM, 3 SCM) JEAN TROY, 80, USA (5 LCM, 3 SCM) CAROLINE KRATTLI, 46, USA (3 LCM, 3 SCM) METTE JACOBSEN, 34, DEN (6 SCM) When it comes down to the awards, we run them with a similar philosophy as our World Swimmers of the Year on our ballots. The swimmer that ends the year with a World Record, gets credit for that World Record on the ballot. We also can only go by what is FINA recognized. The ballot is completely based on the end of the competitive year WRs published by FINA. Hope this gives everyone some insight into the process. Also, on another note, we featured Susan prominently on Page 31 of the April issue, and had a Swimming World Radio interview as part of that feature. I believe she also had time on The Morning Swim Show.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:02:55 GMT

Who were the 6 men and 6 women? What are the guidelines for making this ranking? It must be something other than speed, otherwise it would be a redundant display of top 10 times.

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Swim Freak — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:59:08 GMT

Why not include USMS SCY data/records? I know the whole rationale of not including it, but that doesn't mean I like it. Just because the US is the only country that swims yards, this means it doesn't get included? How many meets are in yards compared to meters in the US? How many meets are readily available (read here within driving range) for SCM or LCM? Not very many I suspect. :soapbox: How about swimming spring nationals in SCM if that's the only record that seems to count?

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

pwolf66 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:08:26 GMT

Sad, very sad. The criteria as laid out pretty much blow. Swimmer of the year? Which year? Fiscal? I thought a year was 1 Jan thru 31 Dec? Who cares if recognition takes till August? (August? Are you KIDDING? In today's info age it takes THAT long?) Well, at least I will never have this problem but still, something needs to be done as SVDL is IMHO THE female masters swimmer of the year. What she has done doesn't even have a word to describe it. Ah well. Paul

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Paul Smith — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:11:55 GMT

Her making cuts for the Olympic Trials as a 42 year old, non "professional" masters swimmer may be the single greatest swim ever by a masters swimmer...you ignored it because it was done at a USS meet (a whole nother topic that uSMS needs to "fix"), not to mention the 5 WR performances in 2 days at a meet the last week of November (why would you have a deadline that would not count all the Zone SCM results in your evaluation??!!)...I'd say your guidelines need some reviewing if you don't think she merits an accord as one of the top 6 (10 when you count alternates) female masters swimmers of 2007. One last note, your system is also flawed in that you don't count WR's set that are later broken...case in point Carolyn Krattli broke the SCM 100IM record and was never mentioned as a WR holder in that event?!

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Frank Thompson — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:05:45 GMT

There are no FINA 20007 World Rankings when the information on December 21, 2007 gets submitted for the magazine in April 2008. The FINA World Rankings get distributed two to three months later. So for that reason the best indicator of performances is the setting of FINA World Records that have been done defined by the critera by Swimming World, which is the end of the competitive year as defined by FINA. FINA updates its World Records on May 1 and November 1 of every year. So a lot of the USMS SCM Zone Championships that were after November 1 of last year did not get included as part of the critera. I think Paul was thinking of the World Records that Susan set after November 1, 2007. Also the critera is that it must be set in a Masters Sanctions Meet and not other meets. Many years ago there were swimmers in the Top Ten and they set many USMS Records and were faster than the listed FINA Word Record but because they did not set there records in masters meets, there swims were ignored by FINA. World Records can only be established in a Masters meet sanction by a Member. And this is written in FINA rule MSW 6.2 per FINA Rule Book. Since I was a member of the panel, its very time consuming to get all of the swimmers on the ballot for consideration. If Swimming World were to wait until 2007 FINA World Rankings were released, the top masters swimmers in the World for 2007 would not make the magazine until August 2008 at the earliest. I have attached a link from a discussion last year on this same subject. forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: World Masters Swimmers of the Year

Allen Stark — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:03:00 GMT

As I pointed out last year,this rewards people who age up as it rewards WRs and if you set the WRs last year and are merely secs ahead of your age group this year it doesn't count.Also SVDL set a bunch of WRs at the SPMA meet and that was after Oct 31.That said,all the winners were worthy.