Order of Events at Masters National

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Rykno — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 05:33:51 GMT

Looking at the pool assigments for Worlds in Perth, it seems pretty fair to me. I like the fact that all the *** events are in the same pool. as well as all the relays men and women.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:16:50 GMT

osterber, While I understand you logic in trying to "build" the days events with excitement, I must point out that this is an all day affair. There is no building from beginning to end in an event like this. It's a virtual marathon! It's a packed POW camp for old rotting swimmers. The only thing that builds throughout the day is the heat, body oder and claustrophobia. Swimmers should be allowed to leave early and not be held hostage by dozens of 400IM heats and 500s. John Smith

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

knelson — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:35:02 GMT

Swimmers should be allowed to leave early and not be held hostage by dozens of 400IM heats and 500s. You can admit it, John. You just want to start drinking earlier. :drink:

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:49:21 GMT

Pacific's course was equal so we did odd/even as well...Until the last event - the men's 1000 - and of course, in trying to make the meet conclude on both courses at the same time, well, let's just say it should have been left alone and everything would have been just fine. :wiggle: The even pool women were finished well before the odd pool, so they chose to put heat 1 in the even pool. So it went 1, 2, 4, 6 and (theoretically) 8 in the even pool, while they went 3, 5, 7, 9 in the odd. These faster heats ended up finishing ahead of heat 6 by a significant margin, so they moved heat 8 to the odd pool at the conclusion of heat 9. What they should have done was to flip heats 1 and 2 so that it would go like this: odd pool: 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 even pool: 1, 4, 6, 8 In fact, I think they should do this more frequently, like in the long events such as the 400IM or events where the first heat will take 12 minutes but the 2nd heat will take 6 or even 5. 'Course... I know that that would create heartaches. But I did enjoy my extra long shower while you were swimming the 1000 free, Jim. :lmao:

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Muppet — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:57:58 GMT

Maybe because the two courses were not identical? The way we did it, everyone swam roughly equally in both courses, assuming they did both days. At the GMU pool, I like the shallow end better; the metal walls were slippery on the deep end. That is exactly the reason they have to do a mens and womens course for GMU. Back to topic... I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I think it is a load that the mens 500 is swum the day after the womens in 3 out of every 4 nationals. At least this time, the rest of the order of events is so crappy, and it is first on Sunday that it won't be the very last event of the meet like last year. Also... some of us distance people also like swimming some of the shorter events too, so I'm not a fan of the separate distance Nationals. How discriminatory. In the meantime, enjoy all that extra rest and sleep.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Jim Clemmons — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:57:36 GMT

But I did enjoy my extra long shower while you were swimming the 1000 free, Jim. :lmao: Very funny dude. NOT! :rant3:

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Jim Clemmons — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:00:33 GMT

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

knelson — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 05:23:28 GMT

OK, that would explain it. The only meet I've even seen this done was 2006 Worlds at Stanford. There the two pools were very different, so men and women flip-flopped between them on alternating days.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

The Fortress — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:27:58 GMT

Maybe because the two courses were not identical? The way we did it, everyone swam roughly equally in both courses, assuming they did both days. At the GMU pool, I like the shallow end better; the metal walls were slippery on the deep end. I did object to the order of events, though: 50 fly directly followed 200 back, and then 50 back directly followed 200 fly later the same day. Enough of this discrimination against buttefly/backstrokers! That's why we have breaststroke -- to give the real swimmers some rest between their events. I like Rick's reasoning a lot but don't think we have a big enough Zones meet to justify 3 days. That's probably correct. But we could wait on the start of the women's events to keep the timeline even in both pools. I like the slippery deep end better and historically have always swum faster there, even though the other pool is supposed to be faster and is where the finals of championship meets are held. I regularly botch freestyle flip turns in the bulkhead pool.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:20:57 GMT

I suggested that. But for some reason I couldn't really understand amidst my exhaustion, the meet director doesn't like the odd/even format because she had some issue with it at a Nationals she attended. Maybe because the two courses were not identical? The way we did it, everyone swam roughly equally in both courses, assuming they did both days. At the GMU pool, I like the shallow end better; the metal walls were slippery on the deep end. I did object to the order of events, though: 50 fly directly followed 200 back, and then 50 back directly followed 200 fly later the same day. Enough of this discrimination against buttefly/backstrokers! That's why we have breaststroke -- to give the real swimmers some rest between their events. I like Rick's reasoning a lot but don't think we have a big enough Zones meet to justify 3 days.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

The Fortress — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:58:28 GMT

That does seem like a strange way to do it. At the PNA/NW Zone Champs over the weekend men and women swam together with one course being odd heats and the other being even. At Nationals the women's and men's events are seeded separately, but they still use the odd/even format rather than having a "men's course" and a "women's course." I suggested that. But for some reason I couldn't really understand amidst my exhaustion, the meet director doesn't like the odd/even format because she had some issue with it at a Nationals she attended. They could also even it out by not starting the first heat of the next women's event until the corresponding men's event had started.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

knelson — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:33:40 GMT

And how about evening out the men's and women's courses when we're swimming in 2 pools? It's so unfair to the women. Because there's fewer of us USMS chicks, we finish way earlier and have much less recovery time between events than the men. That does seem like a strange way to do it. At the PNA/NW Zone Champs over the weekend men and women swam together with one course being odd heats and the other being even. At Nationals the women's and men's events are seeded separately, but they still use the odd/even format rather than having a "men's course" and a "women's course."

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

swimshark — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:26:15 GMT

I've been working on getting the meets around here to adopt a more universal approach to order of events but so far no luck. I am more than willing to send out the order blocks I have to any meet director here who wants to see them. Hey, I'll even help write the entry form if some around here would listen but so far deaf ears.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

The Fortress — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:22:36 GMT

That's how Oregon does it, too. I still do the entry forms. I'm working on getting Virginia and Potomac Valley Masters to adopt this order as well. Please let this happen in PV! Or at least change the order of events for zones each year. And how about evening out the men's and women's courses when we're swimming in 2 pools? It's so unfair to the women. Because there's fewer of us USMS chicks, we finish way earlier and have much less recovery time between events than the men. So, we are forced to swim with less rest or drop an event. Zones is like a slugfest for me. I think I swam the 50 back and 2 relays in about 15 minutes on Saturday. Sheer torture. I got way more rest at the Albatross meet.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

swimshark — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:18:17 GMT

Similar to nationals, we also have a warmup session after the distance session. So if you're not swimming the distance event, then your event _is_ first, just in the second session. Your session starts around noon, that's all. Enjoy your extra sleep! And travel. Especially on Friday, it allows more people to get into town without having to get there the night before. We follow similar event order rules as the national meet... coming up with orders of events is hard: * The 1000 free and 1650 free switch order each year * The women's and men's 500 free, and the 400 IM switch days each year * The 100 IM, 200 IM, and 400 IM are each on different days (one IM event each day) * The 50 free, 100 free, and 200 free are each on different days * For the stroke events (back, ***, fly), the 50, 100 and 200 of each stroke are on different days. Also, each day has a 50 of one stroke, a 100 of another stroke, and a 200 of the third stroke. * The 50 free, 200 free relay, and 200 medley relay are on different days (so there are three different days to swim a 50 free) * The 100 free, 400 free relay, and 400 medley relay are on different days (so there are three different days to swim a 100 free) * The 200 free and 800 free relay are on different days (so there are two different days to swim a 200 free) * No stroke is done back-to-back * No distance is done back-to-back -Rick That's how Oregon does it, too. I still do the entry forms. I'm working on getting Virginia and Potomac Valley Masters to adopt this order as well.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

swimshark — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:16:08 GMT

All you sprinters are just jealous because we get our moneys worth out of our events! Exactly!!! Fort is right It gets us good people, the distance ones up early and let's the whimpy sprinters sleep in.:bolt:

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

osterber — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:20:14 GMT

As a meet director for a large annual masters meet (NE LMSC SCY Champs with 700-800 swimmers), all of the reasons listed here are very very valuable. Our meets follow the general pattern of the USMS nationals, with a 1000/1650 day, then the other three days have the distance event(s) first, followed by everything else. It's very useful for meet staff to have things start off a bit slowly. This goes for officials, the check-in table, the timing table, the announcer, the timers, etc. There aren't a whole lot of meets where teams meet at the bar in the morning _before_ the meet. We set things up so that a relay is always last, which keeps people around, and has most people on deck at the end of the day. That presents a good opportunity for teams, etc., to all head out to dinner together, etc. If we did distance events last, then you'd have meet staff and distance swimmers stuck at the pool for 2-3 more hours, and they'd miss those social opportunities. Let's face it, distance events are not terribly exciting, generally. Starting with the distance events creates a crescendo of events through the day. If you have the distance event last, then you have a session where there is high energy for a lot of the day, and then *poof*, the balloon deflates for the distance event. With distance first, it's all part of a gradual build-up. Similar to nationals, we also have a warmup session after the distance session. So if you're not swimming the distance event, then your event _is_ first, just in the second session. Your session starts around noon, that's all. Enjoy your extra sleep! And travel. Especially on Friday, it allows more people to get into town without having to get there the night before. We follow similar event order rules as the national meet... coming up with orders of events is hard: * The 1000 free and 1650 free switch order each year * The women's and men's 500 free, and the 400 IM switch days each year * The 100 IM, 200 IM, and 400 IM are each on different days (one IM event each day) * The 50 free, 100 free, and 200 free are each on different days * For the stroke events (back, ***, fly), the 50, 100 and 200 of each stroke are on different days. Also, each day has a 50 of one stroke, a 100 of another stroke, and a 200 of the third stroke. * The 50 free, 200 free relay, and 200 medley relay are on different days (so there are three different days to swim a 50 free) * The 100 free, 400 free relay, and 400 medley relay are on different days (so there are three different days to swim a 100 free) * The 200 free and 800 free relay are on different days (so there are two different days to swim a 200 free) * No stroke is done back-to-back * No distance is done back-to-back -Rick

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:53:15 GMT

John "I hope I don't miss my 50 back again" Smith, Yes, we have had the distance events after relays at the end of the day before. However, none of the schedules that were voted on will do this before 2012. When we have done this in the past, we get complaints that sprinters have to show up too early, etc. A second impact of putting a distance race first is it allows more swimmers to take fewer vacation days and still make the meet. If you don't swim until noon on Friday, you can travel out late Thursday after work or early on Friday (depending on where you live). I think a mixed schedule would make everyone equally unhappy which is probably the best we can do. Tim L, When the meet starts with a distance race, we do offer a second warm up period in the main competition pool complete with sprint lanes for starts so you can still sleep in and warm up where you will race. As a general rule, making up the order of events for nationals is not that much fun. However, everyone is welcome to try. Come up with a proposed order of events and submit it to the championship committee for consideration. Better yet, submit it here so you can receive helpful comments from all your online friends.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

knelson — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:52:03 GMT

Listen you sprint pansies, you already get to show up a day later than us. If you don't like sitting through the distance events on the other days then just get to the pool later.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:19:28 GMT

I guess it's just my weird personality but I LOVE to watch swimming. I love to watch 20 year olds, 85 year olds, men and women. I love watching the mile. One of my greatest memories was watching Karen Burton at 1993 (I think) SCY nationals in Santa Clara beat up on most of the men swimming the event. I like to see Jim McConica and Graham Johnston swim those distances. I like to watch the 400 IM. I like to see Dennis Baker swim the 200 fly. Another of my great memories was watching Bill Specht and Scott Shake in 2001 LC at Federal Way both break the world record in the 200 back. I've watched some incredible matches in the 50 free. I can vividly remember my buddy Liz Hobbs race Tracy Moll in the finals in Santa Clara in 2001. I also saw Gary Hall Jr break the master's world record in the 50 fly at Mission Viejo in a beautiful swim. If you don't like to watch swimming, maybe you don't like swimming. If you don't like swimming, for crying out loud, take up bowling! It's your sport, take advantage of it and then you won't have to read about the results at a meet where you supposedly attended. As an aside, the problem with sprinters, mostly, is that they like their swim races like their sex: over before there's any involvement on their part. Uh oh, am I going to get another black eye from the Hulk?

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:03:45 GMT

Are wall lanes preferable? I ended up with mostly wall lanes for this weekend's zone meet (I am not going to SC nationals), by entering with my actual times. Just a coincidence.

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:22:18 GMT

I think some of the posters on this thread, are actually on the wrong thread. You were probably looking for this one: forums.usms.org/showthread.php . The reason distance folks get to go first is twofold. They handle it better and they get to the bars first. Except maybe on some Thursdays. :)

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Allen Stark — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:04:49 GMT

I agree with Fort and Jeff,let the plodders get up early and let me sleep.Being on the West Coast,when I travel east those early events are a bear,let Jim Clemmons get up in what feels like the middle of the night and LET ME SLEEP.:thhbbb:

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:39:12 GMT

Evil One, You need to train a little harder and shorten your taper. You don't want to get out of shape for Masters Nationals. John Smith

RE: Order of Events at Masters National

Former Member — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:01:13 GMT

Dear Mr. Abusive Meet Announcer: (Mr. Gill) To your knowledge have there been proposals to place the distance events at the end of the day or not? Secondly, if the timers are too mentaly "out of it" so early in the morning to handle the speed of the heats in the 50 free, then stick the 100 free first. Don't kill the tone of the meet each morning with long events first. John Smith (voted most irritating master swimmer 2007)