15m Rule Question

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:47:28 GMT

Kathy, Thanks for the clearification...Not to mention helping me win a bet..

RE: 15m Rule Question

Kathy Casey — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:17:38 GMT

The head has to break the surface at a point at or before the 15-meter mark. The example (head breaks the surface at 16 meter mark but the feet have not yet passed the 15 meter mark) is a DQ. In USMS and USA Swimming, the head must break the surface at the 15-meter mark. The FINA rule says, "It is permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn, at the finish and for a distance of not more than 15 metres after the start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface." For USMS and USA-S purposes, "that point" is 15 meters and the head must break the surface at that point, 15 meters. Lindsay has also confirmed that interpretation with a member of the FINA Masters Technical Committee. The head referee for Perth has also confirmed that the interpretation of the 15-meter rule is that the head must break the surface at the 15-meter mark. Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:52:30 GMT

Backstroke: In the backstroke the swimmer must stay on his or her back, except during the turns. The stroke is an alternating motion of the arms -- much like the crawl stroke -- with a flutter kick. Since April of 1991, a swimmer is no longer required to touch the wall with his or her hand before executing the turn maneuver. The key to proper interpretation of the backstroke rule is the phrase "continuous turning action", i.e., a uniform, unbroken motion with no pauses. In a more technical interpretation, after the shoulder rotates beyond the vertical toward the ***, a continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to initiate the turn. There shall be no kick, arm pull, or floatation that is independent of the turn. The position of the head is not relevant. In all U.S. Swimming and FINA competition, each swimmer's head must surface within 15 meters of the start of the race. This is a change from the 1988 FINA rule change which stated that a swimmer must surface within 10 meters of the start of a race. The rule was passed after America's David Berkoff set a world record in Seoul using a 35-meter underwater start, nicknamed the "Berkoff Blastoff" by NBC swimming commentator John Naber. Backstroke race distances are 100 and 200 meters. Butterfly: The most physically demanding stroke, the butterfly features the simultaneous overhead stroke of the arms combined with the dolphin kick. The dolphin kick features both legs moving up and down together. No flutter kicking is allowed. As in the breaststroke, swimmers must touch the wall with both hands before turning. The butterfly was "born" in the early 1950's as a loophole in the breaststroke rules and in 1956 became an Olympic event in Melbourne, Australia. In all U.S. Swimming and FINA competition, each swimmer's head must surface within 15 meters of the start of the race. This rule was passed at the 1998 FINA Congress in Perth, Australia. USA's Misty Hyman, among other swimmers, had utilized an extended underwater start prior to the restriction. Butterfly races are swum in 100 and 200 meter distances.

RE: 15m Rule Question

Allen Stark — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:16:35 GMT

My teammate Bob Smith(what is it about Smiths) pushes the 15M on his starts and turns in the 50 Back and fly.He'll be 65 for Nats and I'll be surprised if he doesn't break the 50 Bk record.

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:09:37 GMT

So.... how's the mood today in Chapel Hill? :cry: As well as in, "Land of Aaahs"

RE: 15m Rule Question

pakman044 — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 06:58:56 GMT

I have the impression a body part needs to break the surface before the 15 meter mark but what if the head doesn't break the surface but some other body part does after the head crosses 15 meters ande The rule is very clear in butterfly, backstroke, and freestyle: By , the head must have broken the surface. It need not be your entire head. It could be your ear, your forehead, your chin, your nose, or some other part of your head (not to imply that you can't jerk your head all the way out of the water either!)--any part of your head breaking the surface means that the head too has broken the surface. Unfortunately, some other part of the body doesn't cut it, and if the head has not broken the surface by the 15m mark, a DQ is in order, so long as the judge is certain. Patrick King

RE: 15m Rule Question

The Fortress — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 06:56:42 GMT

If you are going to Nationals and you want to REALLY see how it is done, watch Michael Ross swim the 100 back. He may well be the fastest backstroker in USMS (of any age) and will probably become the first 40-year-old to break 50 seconds. For comparison, Clay Britt's national record for 40-44 is 51.3 and it is not at all a soft record. Yeah, but Clay's old fashioned like Smith and does not believe in the SDK much. (Plus, he SAYS he hasn't been training much. That sounds like the Smiths too.) There is a woman on my team who has the best start among women I've seen in the PV or any other masters meets I've been too. She has to be really careful not to go past 15 meters. She gets there with 11-12 kicks; it take me 14 or so (I hate to count). My only solace is that she's 22.

RE: 15m Rule Question

ande — Tue, 08 Apr 2008 05:54:02 GMT

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 14:53:43 GMT

That man is a huge inspiration, aside from having grown gills. :)

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 13:39:36 GMT

There are only a handful of masters swimmers that I've seen make it to the 16 yard mark. :bow: And the ones that did were swimming the 50 and 100 backstrokes.

RE: 15m Rule Question

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:43:39 GMT

I've seen more than a few Masters swimmers hitting the 15m mark on a regular basis. It's both impressive and depressing :-) If you are going to Nationals and you want to REALLY see how it is done, watch Michael Ross swim the 100 back. He may well be the fastest backstroker in USMS (of any age) and will probably become the first 40-year-old to break 50 seconds. For comparison, Clay Britt's national record for 40-44 is 51.3 and it is not at all a soft record.

RE: 15m Rule Question

poolraat — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:21:55 GMT

So.... how's the mood today in Chapel Hill? :cry: You're rotten. LOL

RE: 15m Rule Question

osterber — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:36:59 GMT

Your head must break the surface of the water at or before the 15 meter mark. By that point, the head must have broken the surface. "That point" is the 15 meter mark. Your head must break the surface before 15 meters. -Rick

RE: 15m Rule Question

pwolf66 — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:51:30 GMT

Check out this: www.flocasts.org/.../videos.php That's Chris Stevenson just about nailing the 15m limit. I've seen more than a few Masters swimmers hitting the 15m mark on a regular basis. It's both impressive and depressing :-) Paul

RE: 15m Rule Question

pwolf66 — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 07:31:51 GMT

I believe it says the swimmer must surface before reaching the 15m mark. Well if the swimmers feet surface at 15m, I would DQ that swimmer because thier head went beyond the 15m mark while submerged.

RE: 15m Rule Question

pakman044 — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 06:30:42 GMT

So.... how's the mood today in Chapel Hill? :cry: Complete smiles from me, because it's anybody but Carolina as far as I'm concerned. Of course, this comment will probably get me strung up by the 15m tape measure that is lying somewhere in my room. Patrick King

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:02:11 GMT

pakman044 Active Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chapel Hill, NC So.... how's the mood today in Chapel Hill? :cry:

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:10:55 GMT

The rulebook is a little ambiguous, but judges are basically just looking for the head to come up before the marked buoy.

RE: 15m Rule Question

Former Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:39:28 GMT

Thanks. I did read the rule and it isn't completely unambiguous. I read it to say the head must break the surface by the time the head reaches the 15m mark, but... When your feet leave the wall have you traveled 0 distance or have you traveled a distance equal to your height? Does "distance" refer to the distance from the wall or the distance you have traveled? ...it shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface.

RE: 15m Rule Question

pakman044 — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:52:37 GMT

The rulebook is a little ambiguous, but judges are basically just looking for the head to come up before the marked buoy. Your head (or any part of it, including for example, the chin if you're swimming backstroke), can surface at the buoy, in the three strokes that require surfacing at or by the 15m mark. In addition, if there are two markers in your lane (one each rope), and they are not at the same position, the buoy in question is the one that is more favorable to you (for example, the one further down the pool in your lane). I would personally say that the rule seems pretty clear cut to me ("It shall be permissible for a swimmer to be completely submerged for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the start and after each turn. By that point, the head must have broken the surface."), because the determination only refers to what the head is doing, and not anything else, but it's very easy to think that a familiar rule is clear cut. Patrick King

RE: 15m Rule Question

poolraat — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 10:08:50 GMT

Thanks. I did read the rule and it isn't completely unambiguous. I read it to say the head must break the surface by the time the head reaches the 15m mark, but... When your feet leave the wall have you traveled 0 distance or have you traveled a distance equal to your height? Does "distance" refer to the distance from the wall or the distance you have traveled? The markers on the lane lines are measured from the wall.

RE: 15m Rule Question

poolraat — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:20:07 GMT

In the strokes that require that you surface within 15m of the start, does the head itself have to break the surface by the 15m mark or does the head have to surface before the feet reach the 15m mark? I had thought it was the former but just read that it was the latter and am not sure if I should believe it or not. For many swimmers there's an almost 2m difference. Thanks in advance! Lindsey, Without looking it up in the rule book I can't cite the exact rule, but the official looks for the head to break the surface at or before the 15 meter mark. You can find it in the rules if you go to the USMS home page and look at the tabs across the top of the page. The rule book is under the "Articles and Publications" tab. Hope this helps.