Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Allen Stark — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:31:08 GMT

The study showing no HGH effects is a joke.They didn't give it in the doses and duration of abusers.There is an interesting article in last weeks Sports Illustrated about doping.In the big study in the 70s that showed no significant effect of anabolic steroids it turned out one of the participants was buying pills from the others and selling them so that the participants weren't getting the stuff.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Allen Stark — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:28:43 GMT

Chris,point taken,the study was not a joke,but the headline trumpeted from it that HGH didn't affect athletic performance was. Athletes using high levels for a prolonged period weren't studied as the authors note,therefore this study more showed what had been studied rather than what world class cheaters are doing.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Chris Stevenson — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:56:43 GMT

The study showing no HGH effects is a joke... Hmmm. The article mentioned is a review of 44 other articles, not original research, so it is a little unfair to label it a joke unless they missed many important studies (do you know any? You should bring them to the attention of the authors). They also mention the same limitation that you do. Below is a summary of the review. Assuming they did a decent job of surveying the available studies, the fault seems to lie in the dearth of such studies at dosages that are typically used. They also mention that athletic performance itself is not often measured in the studies. The Outside magazine article linked by Anna is fascinating reading in a morbid way, and pretty spooky. I felt like it was an alternative universe version of "Supersize Me." Yech, who would want to do that stuff. **********Snip************* Purpose: To evaluate evidence about the effects of growth hormone on athletic performance in physically fit, young individuals. Data Sources: We reviewed the MEDLINE, EMBASE, SPORTDiscus, and Cochrane Collaboration databases for English-language studies published between January 1966 and October 2007. Study Selection: Randomized, controlled trials that compared growth hormone treatment with no growth hormone treatment in community-dwelling healthy participants between 13 and 45 years of age. Data Extraction: 2 authors independently reviewed articles and abstracted data. Data Synthesis: 44 articles describing 27 study samples met inclusion criteria. 303 participants received growth hormone, representing 13.3 person-years of treatment. Participants were young (mean age, 27 years ), lean (mean body mass index, 24 kg/m2 ), and physically fit (maximum oxygen uptake, 51 mL/kg of body weight per minute ). Growth hormone dosage (mean, 36 µg/kg per day ) and treatment duration (mean, 20 days for studies giving growth hormone for >1 day) varied. Lean body mass increased in growth hormone recipients compared with participants who did not receive growth hormone (increase, 2.1 kg ), but strength and exercise capacity did not appear to improve. Lactate levels during exercise were statistically significantly higher in 2 of 3 studies that evaluated this outcome. Growth hormone–treated participants more frequently experienced soft tissue edema and fatigue than did those not treated with growth hormone. Limitations: Few studies evaluated athletic performance. Growth hormone protocols in the studies may not reflect real-world doses and regimens. Conclusion: Claims that growth hormone enhances physical performance are not supported by the scientific literature. Although the limited available evidence suggests that growth hormone increases lean body mass, it may not improve strength; in addition, it may worsen exercise capacity and increase adverse events. More research is needed to conclusively determine the effects of growth hormone on athletic performance.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:14:44 GMT

Growth Hormone is probably only one ingredient in a cocktail of PEDs that serious users explore...... IGF-1, THG like enhancers, Testosterone, or even still anabolic steriods are used together. Remember Balco relationship with runner Kelli White and her admission to taking several items to win. These articles were posted by Knelson and Gull in a thread a couple of years ago. They're still relevant: The New Yorker September 10, 2001 "To beat the competition, first you have to beat the drug test. " www.gladwell.com/.../2001_08_10_a_drug.htm "Drug Test" Outside magazine November 2003 "Everybody knows that many athletes cheat by using performance-enhancing drugs like steroids, testosterone, and EPO. But what is it like to take these banned substances? Do they really help you win? To find out, we sent an amateur cyclist into the back rooms of sports medicine, where he just said yes to the most controversial chemicals in sports." outside.away.com/.../200311_drug_test_1.html

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:08:52 GMT

I think a USMS HGH experiment is in order here. Perhaps after Nats one of our resident speed demons could lend themselves to science for a brief period of time...2-3 years max.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:03:10 GMT

Perhaps Kenyon should move up to Division II or Division I. They don't seem to have much of a problem winning NCAAs for the last two decades. It might be more challenging for the team and coach. Growth Hormone is probably only one ingredient in a cocktail of PEDs that serious users explore...... IGF-1, THG like enhancers, Testosterone, or even still anabolic steriods are used together. Remember Balco relationship with runner Kelli White and her admission to taking several items to win. John Smith

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:57:07 GMT

And---I think the USA Woman's 4 X 200 Free Relay will win Gold and still hold the WR---

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:51:51 GMT

3/4 of members of dutch team relay are world class sprinters, the WR was expected after the heat without the two best members. Juiced ? I don't know, you can make a case about everybody that break a WR these days or win multiple gold medals in every race that he compete, or accept that everybody take some sort of "supplements", legal , banned or whatever, and cheer to the "amazing" performance until some proof of be juiced. The anti-doping can state that at that moment you "can be" clean not that you're clean, but nothing about a week before for examples. Look a Marion Jones, for years she was clean for antidoping until...you know the story. I personally think that everybody take something, legal or not for me don't make any differences, it's so simple : you take something to help your performance, for me this's "doping" but I accept it, I accept that today in sports working hard in pratice is as important as working hard in "kitchen" to fuel the body with the best "gasoline" as possible, otherwise you've doubt every time to watch an impressive performance. At the end, I looking for Beijing this summers for a exciting final at 4x100sl between Australian, Germany, USA and Netherland.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

knelson — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:54:28 GMT

These results by the Dutch are not out of line with historical performances from a country that has a rich swimming tradition and consistently produces tall, athletic women. ...and men. The Dutch are now statistically the tallest nation on Earth.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:01:25 GMT

Growth Hormone is probably only one ingredient in a cocktail of PEDs that serious users explore...... IGF-1, THG like enhancers, Testosterone, or even still anabolic steriods are used together. Remember Balco relationship with runner Kelli White and her admission to taking several items to win. I don't doubt that PEDs actually enhance performance, but I do sometimes wonder if it does so as much as users believe. Or how much would be due to the placebo effect. I dont know how much research is actually done to measure the true extent of performance enhancement in actual competition. It would be difficult to do for many reasons. But the nature of juicers is such that they'll try anything to give them a perceived edge, whether it actually occurs or not. And WADA has been known to ban drugs that do not actually improve performance (ie, they don't do the research either). Just thinking out loud. I'm not trying to say that using PEDs is okay -- far from it, I think it is unethical and also extremely stupid -- but the effect may be less than we think.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:47:15 GMT

Hot off the press... I found the following quote interesting: "The tests also probably don't reflect the dose and frequency practiced by athletes illegally using the hormone. Experiments like that aren't likely to be conducted. 'It's dangerous, unethical and it's never going to be done,' said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine." But apparently some athletes have no qualms in using their own bodies as test tubes. Silly, silly, silly. Creatine users should take note too.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:14:25 GMT

Perhaps Kenyon should move up to Division II or Division I. They don't seem to have much of a problem winning NCAAs for the last two decades. It might be more challenging for the team and coach. John Smith DIII cuts for NCAA are faster than DII, so moving to DII would be a step down... And DIII can't / doesn't give athletic scholarships - so until or unless they start, they'll stay in DIII. Are you the same John Smith from Firestone High School?

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Iwannafly — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:03:37 GMT

But the nature of juicers is such that they'll try anything to give them a perceived edge, whether it actually occurs or not. And WADA has been known to ban drugs that do not actually improve performance (ie, they don't do the research either). Perhaps drugs such as marijuana??? I don't know about any of you, but there were times during my misspent youth that I might have dabbled a bit...I can assure you that swimming hard was the furthest thing from my mind at the time.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:27:36 GMT

Hot off the press... Full story here: news.yahoo.com/.../growth_hormone_athletes_5;_ylt=AlzhGuIMBfbmYE0_QfKYZBoE1vAI | | That was interesting. But they made a point that there is a difference between taking as prescribed and on the level as taken illegally. My mom is prescribed it due to growth hormone deficiency because of damage to the pituitary gland from a benign tumor removed years ago. It has caused her to have osteoporosis and due to an array of other things going on, the best treatment is injections of HGH. I want to see if she notices a huge difference in her walking/hiking performance once she starts taking it. But it looks like in that realm she may not notice much according to this article.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:15:37 GMT

Hot off the press... Growth hormones don't boost performance By STEPHANIE NANO, Associated Press Writer Tue Mar 18, 5:52 PM ET NEW YORK - Athletes who take human growth hormone may not be getting the boost they expected. While growth hormone adds some muscle, it doesn't appear to improve strength or exercise capacity, according to a review of studies that tested the hormone in mostly athletic young men. "It doesn't look like it helps and there's a hint of evidence it may worsen athletic performance," said Dr. Hau Liu, of Santa Clara Valley Medical Center in San Jose, Calif., who was lead author of the review. Growth hormone, or HGH, is among the performance enhancers baseball stars Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were accused of taking in the blockbuster Mitchell Report. Clemens denies using the hormone, while Pettitte admits using it.... Full story here: news.yahoo.com/.../growth_hormone_athletes_5;_ylt=AlzhGuIMBfbmYE0_QfKYZBoE1vAI | |

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:14:39 GMT

... maybe, if she had any talent to begin with... :bolt: I believe the american record certificates/national championship medals she has lying around means just maybe she had a little :p ;)

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:02:08 GMT

My mom starts her injections of medically prescribed HGH soon. She is about 30 years out of competitive swimming, but I'm thinking of asking her to start her comeback. ...You think anyone will notice if she's on a WR setting relay?? :laugh2: ... maybe, if she had any talent to begin with... :bolt:

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:17:44 GMT

No world records but how 'bout the Kenyon College Women winning their 22nd DIII Title this week end... And winning while only turning in two event winners...a relay and the mile. :bow: :bow::bow:Kenyon College Swimming!!!

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:01:30 GMT

You guys are incredibly fast at finding new smileys when they come out. It usually takes a half hour or less for someone to discover them. Do we get some prize for discovering it so fast?? Maybe we could win a smiley in our own likeness. Then whenever anyone says anything awesome...I'll give them a Jen smiley. ;) ps. long red curly hair. that should do it.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:53:45 GMT

I am going to exhibit my inconsistency here... I am the first to suspect "unknown" or "elderly" swimmers who suddenly make big drops. However, the Dutch (women) swimmers have always been good relay swimmers, starting way back in the 1950s. Having trained with the Dutch team in the 1980s I am very comfortable saying that none of the swimmers then took any performance enhancing drugs - not Verstappen when she was world champion 200m free in 1982, not de Rover or van Staveren when they won gold in 1984, and not van Bentum when she was consistently third behind the 'roided-out East Germans at various international meets. These results by the Dutch are not out of line with historical performances from a country that has a rich swimming tradition and consistently produces tall, athletic women. Just my $0.02... My mom starts her injections of medically prescribed HGH soon. She is about 30 years out of competitive swimming, but I'm thinking of asking her to start her comeback. ...You think anyone will notice if she's on a WR setting relay?? :laugh2: And I am the last to truly suspect anyone of doping. Even after my disappointment of watching last years Tour de France. :shakeshead: But I do REALLY like the new smiley, so I must look for all relevant post to use it. :roids:

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:31:44 GMT

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:30:01 GMT

:roids::roids::roids::roids: Damn. I just noticed the new smiley and was going to post the same thing. But because I like it, I'll just reiterate...:roids::roids::roids::roids: :laugh2:

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:22:19 GMT

:roids::roids::roids::roids:

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

Former Member — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:43:33 GMT

All the swimmers had big drops in destroying the old record swimnews.com/.../displayStory.jhtml John, Paul? comments.

RE: Dutch Women - WR 4x100m Free Relay

The Fortress — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:24:02 GMT

Were they expected to have a chance to break the WR? I've only heard of their anchor swimmer. Are the others among the best 100 freestylers in the world?