Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 16:35:22 GMT

I'm thinking of swimming IM during the 200 free at nationals - I didn't want to register for the 200 IM because that would be a back-to-back event for me. What are the turn rules for freestyle races if you swim another stroke, like IM? Could I legally do a flip turn on back to *** for example, and not get DQ'd? Of course I wouldn't be able to count that time as a valid 200 IM time, but it might be fun to do anyhow.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:30:05 GMT

I don't know if age group swimming allows in the water starts, but masters do and the USMS rules seem to me to allow a backstroke start as an in the water start: Those starting in the water must have at least one hand in contact with the wall or starting block. The freestyle rule has been discussed before, the consensus was that you can be disqualified for breaststroke if your style is such that you completely submerge: Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except it shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface. Perhaps Kathy Casey will provide a authoritative answer on behalf of the rules committee?

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

pwolf66 — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:06:37 GMT

I thought I read somewhere (probably here) that when swimming freestyle, after your turn and pullout, some part of your body needs to be above the water. Would today's breaststroke technique disqualify you as you glide with your body submerged? Skip That would be a requirement of backstroke not freestyle. The only requirement for freestyle (if not part of an IM) is that your head must surface prior to the 15m mark. Paul

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

smontanaro — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 07:39:59 GMT

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Justin Ritter — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:13:29 GMT

The freestyle rule has been discussed before, the consensus was that you can be disqualified for breaststroke if your style is such that you completely submerge: Yes! Thanks for pointing that out, this is also what the official said. And the new breaststroke style definitely has you submerged during the glide portion which would result in a DQ. So unless you swim old-school breaststroke swimming breaststroke during freestyle will technically get you a DQ. Only if the officials are picky enough to know that and care of course. They might just be "he's swimming IM, whatever" and not really pay attention to you.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Justin Ritter — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 03:05:34 GMT

I had a discussion specifically about swimming IM during a freestyle race with the referee at our meet once. The only rule (besides not pushing off the bottom, or pulling on a laneline, or leaving your lane) in freestyle is that you have to break the surface of the water by 15 meters. So you can swim IM in any way you want, doing flipturns during the back to *** or *** to *** or whatever but just be careful your breaststroke pullout doesn't go beyond 15 meters. And if your breaststroke pullout does go beyond 15 meters after you've swum half an IM then that's quite impressive (and you probably didn't work your front half hard enough). The ref I was talking to did actually DQ a kid once in a USAS meet for going beyond 15 meters while doing *** in a free race. Of course I'm not an official so you might want to take it with a grain of salt. Probably wouldn't hurt to ask the official at the meet what they think, and also let them know you're going to swim the race that way. Now whether or not you're allowed to do a backstroke start during a freestyle race was debated by the refs at our meet and none of them could agree on its legality. Edit: Oh, and of course even if you do swim it as a perfectly legal IM it still won't count as an official IM time.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:18:54 GMT

No, I meant that the solid markers are standard at 5M in high/elite level meets. Your local pool could be anywhere between 10-18 feet depending. The pool where I swim, you have to be careful using the solids as the ropes have been repaired so many times that it's a huge range. Quality is not so good, but I say 13 feet: www.youtube.com/watch (you can see Ande for a split second at the bottom of the screen. I'm the one with the yellow cap.)

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

poolraat — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:17:48 GMT

No it was legit - I was thinking so hard about the lactic acid that crept into every muscle & was trying really hard to pull it all together. Since it was only 100m IM it was all sprint . . . I got lost on the mind over matter stuff & blew the turn. Hulk said the official did a double take, then slowly raised his hand - I knew what I did was wrong and the judge was standing right over my lane - I think the Official couldn't believe such a Rookie mistake was made at a Masters Meet. Oh well . . . live and learn. www.pvmasters.org/.../ancm0308.htm Did you roll to your *** before the touch? Or did you push off on your back (the "past vertical towards" rule) then roll to your stomach? Just curious.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:25:05 GMT

Yep - I made the error by having a good fly & back that I was so excited I did backstroke turn to *** - I realized what I had just done and hesitated on the streamline push off the wall because then I started thinking "yikes, I hope no one noticed & what comes after back". I've swum the longer IM's this season and I just got lost on what I was doing. It's ok - I wasn't going to break any records.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

pwolf66 — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:07:16 GMT

Mermaid, In your defense it was a textbook backstroke turn. :smooch: Paul

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:14:21 GMT

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:17:47 GMT

Having just gotten DQ'd yesterday on the IM - Back to *** turn . . . something about having shoulders square to the wall . . . Keep your turns legal! I made a stupid rookie mistake and am mad at myself. Anyway - how about making the warm-up an event? Dodging a variety of strokes & turns, pool entries from both ends, people leaving lanes, no rhyme or reason to the chaos -- and oh yea, THIS lane is now a sprint lane . . . You get points: 1 - for swimming a clean lap - not getting touched or touching anyone. 1 - for continous swimming - any stroke (minus points if you touch someone) double points for complete breaststroke You get DQ'd for using weapons (handpaddles & fins)

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

poolraat — Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:51:36 GMT

Having just gotten DQ'd yesterday on the IM - Back to *** turn . . . something about having shoulders square to the wall . . . Say what?!!! I've been an official for several years and I don't recall this being in the rule book. In fact I just re-read the rules to make sure. Sounds like the S&T official didn't know the rules.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 08:47:47 GMT

Perhaps there is potential to bring back the old Russian technique of injecting air into the lower intestines to provide greater buoyancy. Or, conversely (same result) eat lots and lots of beans................. (Apart from added buoyancy, possibility of jet propulsion..........)

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:32:08 GMT

Returning to the spirit of John's initial post, I propose to name this new turn, saluting the desire to legitimize cheating, as the "Spitzer"... Or, alternatively, "The Steamroller." I really need to send him a thank you note. My wife didn't give me any grief over the Speedo sweats I ordered this week after hearing about his $4000 call girl. Good time to buy another Fastskin.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:31:50 GMT

Perhaps there is potential to bring back the old Russian technique of injecting air into the lower intestines to provide greater buoyancy. To paraphrase noted philosopher Mr. 'T', "I pity the poor fool timers..."

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:35:19 GMT

I like the legal dolphin kick on the breaststroke pull-out (I think it dropped about a second from my 50 time). I'm not sure how many remaining possible rule changes would speed things up for most people. How much would a back-to-*** flip turn speed things up?

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:41:17 GMT

Or slightly less ambitious we could allow even more buoyant suits? Or perhaps webbed hands or webbing between the legs for improved dolphin kicking? Gee, would that even be illegal under current rules?

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:21:49 GMT

Now that the rules allow one dolphin kick in breaststroke the cheaters are sneaking in two, one under the cover of splash, the second in the legal timing. We could change the rules to allow unlimited dolphin kicking off the start and turns in breaststroke, which would make judging easier. Heck, it's hard to tell whether the toes are turned out so we could allow dolphin kicking all the way through the race. Now, if we want to increase speed generally we could eliminate breaststroke altogether which would bring the average speed up at meets, and reduce the timeline. If you wanted to maintain the medal count you could add 50 free and fly to the Olympics to replace the 100 and 200 ***. :p

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:06:44 GMT

Shark, That's just a classic back to *** bucket turn only dipping your head underwater instead of keeping above water...... nothing new really. The problem with this turn is that you still have to touch the wall. We're lookin' for genuine cheating alternatives...... i.e. ways to go faster without extra training or talent. John Smith

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:38:48 GMT

OK. I'll bite. Hit on the sites below. The turn I have described in the past is illustrated. Top arm, body roll, side push. The only problem, it is legal and was designed in the early 70's. So it ain't cheatin. youtube.com/watch youtube.com/watch forums.usms.org/showthread.php TGIF. Thanks for posting. This has got to be what I was seeing at our club/HS swim meet. Question: If someone knows how to do this turn clean and fast and uses this instead of te traditional roll/flip in a backstroke event,could they actually be faster?

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Former Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:19:47 GMT

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

aquageek — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:38:54 GMT

Now, if we want to increase speed generally we could eliminate breaststroke altogether which would bring the average speed up at meets, and reduce the timeline. Stop picking on Stud. That's just mean.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Allen Stark — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:20:51 GMT

Instead of starting blocks,we could start from diving boards with a running start.Also,instead of limiting SDK to 15M for safety let swimmers carry oxygen tanks.Heck,they have monofin races in Europe(some with O2 tanks.) Or to get really fast times we could eliminate stroke and turn judges entirely and if you want to turn in the center of the pool to get a record it is on your conscience.

RE: Proposing A New Way to Cheat - Back to *** Turn

Allen Stark — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:14:13 GMT

How about the new bionic suit that does the swimming for you.You just program it with the event and time and it does the rest.