200 IM + falling piano = challenge

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:10:32 GMT

Feisty: Great work! Inspiring swim. I had been wondering how your race would go, and was glad to get the update. Sounds like despite the dead legs, you found a way to push through to a great finish! Maybe sometime next year we'll end up in the same heat and keep those drops going. (I briefly considered heading up for the Illinois meet, but mid to late April is always dominated by work, and I couldn't have maintained enough focus to justify it. But someday...) I have continued to enjoy reverberating good feelings from my race and time drop from last month--there's something really satisfying about swimming the 200, even if I'm a latecomer to it. Now it's time to get ready for the 200 LCM race (which I have never swum). This summer, for sure. Especially if I actually learn how to swim backstroke. Again, congratulations, Feisty! :banana: Awesome drop!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:43:19 GMT

Congratulations Ms Feisty!!!! This is even more of an accomplishment when you consider that you swam it in what I think is a kind of dark, creepy pool... for more falling pianos, please see my youtube uploads on farcebook of me diving off the blocks in my 500 free and Jim falling off the blocks before his 50 free.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

aquaFeisty — Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:23:04 GMT

Hi Red, I went a lifetime best 200 IM at IL States yesterday - 2:44.00. My splits were seriously ugly though! 34.79 43.91 48.82 36.48 Previous best 200 IM was a 2:45.7 from March 97, when I was 22 years old! To put the fly split in perspective, my lifetime best 50 fly (from 1998) is a 32.3. I swam the 50 fly this year in-season and went only 35.5. I tried to take the fly smooth, but I turned and thought, "Wow, my legs are tired. Wow, my legs are REALLY tired. Holy cow, I'm tired. This does not bode well for breaststroke..." On the last turn on free, I saw that there was a girl two lanes over who was just ahead of me. I sprinted my brains out and touched her out at the wall. Anyways, I really only trained to do a fast 100 free this year, so did not have much endurance and it shows on the 2nd half of that IM. On the bright side, I think there's a lot more room for improvement! Hope we both get to swim another tapered IM next year. :)

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

BillS — Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:50:18 GMT

Frank and Fritz: (nice combo--you guys could go on the road!) my fly felt great, not too fast. My 50 fly in the same meet was 31.6, an improvement from 32.4. The bottom line is that my backstroke is terrible from a technique standpoint. I pretty much need to start from scratch. I've gone to a local coach for a private session or two in recent years (for free and fly), and I think it's time for another one. If I can bring my backstroke up to a level of competence (!) it will help a great deal. The 45 degree thing is a good suggestion. It has been pointed out to me that my head moves like crazy and my arms cross the center line, so there's plenty of work to do! In general, my race felt great. It hurt, especially coming home in free, but it also felt under control. This has really become my favorite race. If I can get my backstroke under control, I'd like to try the 400. Everything else feels good enough to try. Thanks for weighing in! This really is a great help, especially the ideas of new things to try and the evaluation of my splits as they relate to each other. Red, as you may recall from my earlier post here I have some similar issues with my backstroke. My fly is also very much a work in progress; one of my first posts here 4-5 years ago was about trying to learn fly from scratch at the ripe old age of 45. The 200 IM has always been a goal of mine, so a while back I screwed up all my courage and gave it a shot. My only goal was to complete it legally without the piano taking me down mid-race. I cruised the fly and then tried to work a little harder after that. Here's how it turned out: Swim Details Swimmer: Sumerfield, Bill H Sex/Age: M49 Club: Oregon (OREG) Meet: Short Course Meters Pentathlon Event: 200 SCM IM Heat/Lane: Heat 2, Lane 2 Seed Time: 3:00.00 Final Time: 2:51.54 Splits Leg Cumulative Subtractive 1 40.60 40.60 2 1:28.03 47.43 3 2:14.99 46.96 4 2:51.54 36.55 Obviously, I need some major work on backstroke, but I was pretty pleased with this for a first effort. For reference, my 50 fly at the same meet was a 35 low. I think I can probably go out a little bit faster without dying, but the biggest bang for my buck will come from fixing whatever ails my backstroke. Although I really dislike swimming it, I am trying to do more and more of it in practice. Fortunately, we swim a lot of IM on my team. I really enjoyed this swim. While my time isn't very competitive, I can see this becoming one of my favorite events, too. Thanks for reviving this thread. For me, reading advice from the more experienced swimmers about how to tackle an event helps me find the confidence to give it a try.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:08:23 GMT

Weally good advice. Get help.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:47:39 GMT

Hey Feisty, I wondered how you were doing, since we exchanged thoughts on this thread two years ago. Good luck on your swim in three weeks! You'll have to report back here to tell us how it went. I see you're in Naperville. I toyed with the idea of swimming in the Illinois championships, but April is killer for me at work and it seems my SCY season is now over. Time to recover a bit and gear back up for the LCM 200 (having never done that!) Yes, my fly has improved, and I'm pleased about it. It's those middle strokes that pose the problem... Thanks for checking back in--can't wait to hear how you do!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:30:29 GMT

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

orca1946 — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:00:23 GMT

Try to get someone to help with the 2 weal strokes .

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Karl_S — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 09:34:19 GMT

I'm not half the swimmer of most of the posters here, but here are my $0.02. You might want to try workouts #6 and #10 here: ruthkazez.com/LunchSwims.html There are also lots of IM workouts here: ruthkazez.com/50swimworkouts.html Based on your 200 splits and the fact that your 50 *** is 40.65, I would agree that your weakest link is the back. One idea to work on that is to do "Buldge" IMs where you throw in an extra leg of the stroke that you want to focus on. In your case, a 1000 yd buldge IM set would be: 8x(25 fly, 50 back, 25 ***, 25 free) Improved fittness should speed up the *** leg since you know that you have more breaststroke speed in you, if you can just dodge the piano before you get there.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

aquaFeisty — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 07:39:41 GMT

Hey Red, nice swim!!! Has your 50 fly improved? I noticed that your fly split dropped a whole second. Your *** and free splits are a lot better too... maybe overall conditioning has improved? Congrats! I think we are on the same 200 IM schedule, because I really haven't swam it since that March 2008 time I posted in this thread! Well, I did swim it last April, but that was post-partum and post-appendectomy and it was not a pretty sight, so I'm just not going to count that. I'm swimming it again in 3 weeks, hopefully semi in-shape and tapered. I will be super-happy if I get down to the 2:45 range. Congrats again on your time! :)

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

fritznh — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 07:13:43 GMT

I started this thread two years ago when I swam my first 200 IM. My SCY season in 2009 was compromised by intermittent training, so I didn't advance the cause too much. Since then, however, I have maintained consistent time in the pool and established a decent level of conditioning. I've worked on my fly and my breaststroke kick, and I've put more time in doing IM sets. A week ago, I swam the 200 IM for the first time since 2008, and I took six seconds off, from 2:50.99 to 2:45 flat. My splits were 33.7 46.6 49.7 35.0 I used many of the thoughts provided in this thread over the intervening months, and I wanted to note the drop and especially express my thanks. Now I need to invest some time in improving my backstroke, and maybe I can drop some more... Thanks, forumites, for the wisdom and the support. Just some quick thoughts -- six seconds is a very impressive drop! Your free split is strong, so your pacing is pretty good, but your backstroke may still need some tweaking. There are two things I've found most helpful in backstroke, body position and the start of the pull. For body position drills, I'd suggest that you lie on your back on a kickboard and do double arm backstroke. Try not to let the board go flying out from underneath. This is where your body is flat in the water, and this is the position where you will create the least resistance. For the hand entry, I'd suggest some backstroke pull sets with paddles -- but do them easy and concentrate completely on mechanics. Don't blow your shoulders out! If you look at some of the fast backstroke swimmers, their arms are nearly at 45 degrees when their hands enter the water. You can't get much of a pull with your hand above your head, it doesn't produce much in the way of forward thrust. So try putting your hand into the water further out from the centerline, and see where you get the fewest strokes per lap. I'm afraid I can't help you much on breaststroke -- I need to milk the pullouts as much as I can to keep from actually swimming the stroke. On the turn, though, pull yourself in close to the wall with your lead hand, and let your trailing hand point back to where you're going. Get a quick breath and push off hard and slightly downwards. You're allowed one dolphin kick and you should use it -- your butterfly split indicates your kick is pretty good. Best of luck!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:23:56 GMT

These are very helpful thoughts--the set ideas look good. I will work them in to progress from here...Thanks so much!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

fatboy — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:12:37 GMT

Congratulations on the 6 second drop! Nice work. You have a very nice fly split, but there's a big drop-off from the 33 split on the fly to the 46 split on the backstroke. Is it really your backstroke or are you too tired from the fly? What are your splits for 100 back and 200 back? If they are better than your IM back splits maybe you are going out too hard? Just a thought.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

swimmj — Mon, 05 Apr 2010 01:31:28 GMT

Hey Red, Congrats on your improvement in the 200 IM. 6 seconds is a healthy time drop in a 200. Continue to work on improving your backstroke and *** and free legs for the end of the race. One set we do that is hard, but great is: 100 IM drill 2:00 200 IM/free 3:30 (25 fly, 25 free, 25 back, 25 free, ...) 150 3:00 swam as 50 fly, 50 back, 50 *** 4 x 50 1:00 fast free and cycle through it 3 or 4 times. The times listed above are for SCM, but you should be getting at least 20 seconds after each swim. The goal here is to simulate how tired you will be at the end of a 200 IM and work on sprinting your free. Hope this helps and congrats again on your improvement! --mj

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:23:24 GMT

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:20:16 GMT

Thanks, Feisty.You've captured my attitude. A good way to finish my season and aim toward improved technique and conditioning next time around. I'm pleased to have converted the 200 from an event that intimidated me to one I'll look forward to entering from now on. If I can get my 100 fly nailed down, it's on to the 400!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

aquaFeisty — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 07:05:11 GMT

I was just wondering how you did this weekend. Congrats on your 200 IM, Red! Good job dropping another second, especially if the swim felt smooth and controlled. That 100 IM is tricky, with the fast transitions. Keep at it (esp. working on the turns) and you'll have some time drops next season, I bet!

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:40:52 GMT

Anna Lea, thanks for your introduction to Laurie Raeburn at the Ozark meet. She was very helpful, and I'm eager to implement some of her thoughts, especially in my freestyle and breaststroke. I remained plateaued in the 100 IM, but dropped a second in the 200 to 1:50, and was much more controlled and confident. I swam a pretty relaxed backstroke. We did not get splits in the meet data, so I do not know them. But in general, my conditioning improved, and I'm eager to keep working at the 200. All in all it was a good meet, even though my performance did not improve. I swam more fluidly and felt better. Something to build on.

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:01:20 GMT

Permit me to add an amusing footnote to this thread: I reviewed the psych sheets for the Ozark meet on Saturday and Sunday and was amazed to discover that I was seeded first in the 200 IM with a seed time of 1:51.8. Alas, my proper seed time is exactly 60 seconds slower than that. Happily, a correction has been made...

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:00:36 GMT

Red60, I will be at the meet this weekend and will hook you up with a couple of our swimmers who are also coaches. They'll be able to give you a lot of help. Anna Lea

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:22:34 GMT

Thought I'd post an update to this thread, since I got such helpful insights from the group. I have traveled a fair amount in the last month, which has proved a challenge, since my overall yardage was already down this SCY season compared to last (my first.) But I am thinking about future seasons as well, so am not placing too much importance on times--a little more on improved technique and overall mindfulness in the water. Anyway, I've been working on IM sets and especially my *** and backstroke, with an eye toward figuring out the right energy expenditure for the 200. Just by thinking about my legs more I've made progress. In backstroke I've tried to kick less but roll more (with the overall caveat that my backstroke stinks). Next year I think I'll explore entering backstroke sprints so I can learn better what it means to swim the stroke fast, rather than seeking not to drown in an IM. In breaststroke I've concentrating much more on the kick. Also working some on fly and *** turns. Some progress there. I am learning what it means to not grip the lip and pull myself forward and up while I tuck my feet. Working on pushing my hands off the wall--the velocity of the tuck seems to be the crucial thing, which I am only beginning to get down. Here's a question: the back-to-*** turn. The side flippy thing is out of the question for now. How to approach this turn? I feel like the dorkiest thing ever doing it--like a piece of furniture bumping a wall, then clunking slowly off it. So anyway, I am approaching my zone meet this weekend with genuine curiosity. Will the increased attention and more IM sets with more variety show up in my times for the 100 and 200? I'm hoping so. It's a two day meet. 100 on Saturday and 200 on Sunday. (Among other events I've entered.) I'll report back with the news and whatever I learned...

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:47:57 GMT

Thanks for the links George. There are several great stories there. Right Kirk. I think Matt just got tired of coaching at a school where there wasn't much of a feeder program and the talent wasn't so great. Jim really liked Coach Geggie, and you guys did pretty well I think. Red, We've high-jacked your post long enough. Thanks for the chance to talk history with these guys. I'm more of a flyer/freestyler like you. Backstroke was my worst stroke until a couple of years ago. I got excited about sprint backstroke because a flyer like me can stay down and kick a long way off the start and turns and go faster underwater than backstroking on the surface. whoops that's a tangent that won't help you right now. The point is, I got quite a bit better simply by training more yardage on my back. Spend a bit more time with your weakest strokes - back and *** - and you'll improve quickly. If breaststroke is really bad for you, maximize the pullout. Don't be in a hurry to break streamline and swim. Ken

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:48:10 GMT

Netho I was at Chikopi in 1964, I stayed accross the lake at the girls camp. The only thing I did not like about that lake was those little bloodsucking leeches that were in the lake. I was more afraid of those then sharks. I did a little distance training there with Marty Sinn. MattIII swam in the relay marathon race at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. The USA team came second to the Canadian Team of Cliff Lumsdon, Ben Gazzelle, George Bevan and my Brother Tom they won the race. Marilyn Bell was also a member of that team and received 1 fifth of the prize money even though she did not swim on the relay. She instead crossed Lake Ontario and became the first person to cross the lake. www.soloswims.com/bell.htm

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

Former Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:23:49 GMT

Netho, do you ever get to talk to Matt 111. I remember the first time I saw him swim fly using what he and his dad called called a fishtail kick. It was in London Ontario. The name of the fishtail kick then became the dolphin kick. Ken does this story mention you in the bysout swim??? www.usmsswimmer.com/.../splashback.pdf George, I'm sorry to say I haven't talked to Matt in years. I did get to work a couple of years at Matt's Camp Chikopi up in Northern Ontario. That's where I learned about the old pro marathoners like you. I now have Conrad Wennerberg's book too. He had some funny and complimentary things to say about you. Yes. That's my Boy Scout mile story. Yes Kirk I was at Sexton from '68 to '71. You might know my younger brother Jim. I remember meeting you at 2004 SC nationals in Indy. Keep up the good work you guys. You've been pretty helpful on these pages. You're entertaining posters too! Ken

RE: 200 IM + falling piano = challenge

knelson — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:14:59 GMT

Yes Kirk I was at Sexton from '68 to '71. You might know my younger brother Jim. I remember meeting you at 2004 SC nationals in Indy. OK, I didn't make the connection at the time, I guess. I probably wouldn't have without hearing the name Matt Mann. While I was at Sexton he was only a teacher. The coach was Chuck Geggie. I remember Jim's name because he had the school record in the 100 back at Sexton when I started. It was broken while I was there. Anyway, pretty weird. I wouldn't have expected to meet somehow who graduated from the same high school as me here!