Improving propulsion

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:47:49 GMT

Given the 14-16 SPL I assume you feel that you are mainly getting your propulsion from the kick or you wouldn't be concerned. What speed are we talking about at 16 SPL? What is your SPL and speed for a pure pull? It seems to me that one needs to know your swim speed, kick speed, and pull speed before one can really usefully offer suggestions, esp. on something like pull/kick balance. If you're a top-ten swimmer trying to cut an extra tenth off your time the prescription is likely to be different than if you are a beginner that is basically kicking the length and just going through the motions on the pull.

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:46:03 GMT

I have tried backing off on my kick and I can hold a more balanced stroke at slower speeds, but I find it very difficult to accelerate without letting my kick take over. I hate pulling with a vengeance. I am the one who prefers kick sets! With a pull buoy, almost everyone else speeds up and I slow down. Often I'll do pull sets without the buoy but with a two beat kick. The pull buoy puts me too high in the water. As for times . . . Normally, I swim the 500 in about 7:11. My coach says I should easily be able to swim under 7 minutes. Last time I swam the 1000, I was at 15:07. My goal for the mile is to come in under 25 but the last time I swam it my goggles broke in the first hundred yards. I did finish, but my time was pretty irrelevant. I'm quite new to competition (only raced maybe 6 times) so part of my problem at meets is that I've not quite learned to pace myself. I either start out blazingly fast and burn out, or have too much left at the end. I made the transition from a lap swimmer to a masters swimmer about 6 years ago. But recently, I took about six months off (broken rib, starting a new business, etc.). I've been back in the pool now for 6 weeks and feel that this is a good time to invest in fixing problems that have been plaguing me for the past few years.

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:15:19 GMT

I love trying to lower my 25 times along with my distance per stroke. I'm not a freestyler but just acquired my PR in my 50 fr at a masters meet Feb 17th (25.9) - not earth shattering but a PR is a PR. Anyway, I've been using a Finis snorkle and simply watching my stroke pattern and streamlining more. Do you have a goal time? Will you share it with us? Coach T.

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:11:09 GMT

Thanks for the suggestions! You'll have to experiment with different pulling patterns to see which one improves your DPS. Since your coach sees a good EVF, I'd experiment by exaggerating the length of time your forearm is outside or away from the midline. I am experimenting with the "sweep" of my forearm as you described and find that I feel more powerful when it's farther away from the mid-line. Swim 20 X 25 (hold 19 seconds or under per 25 and rest 20 seconds after each (increase the rest by 5 seconds if you cannot make the 19sec or under per 25). We swim a variation of this in practice, starting with a 30 second interval, down to 25 seconds, down to 20. I have no problem holding 19/20 seconds with intervals with the 25 second interval. I haven't done a full 20 of them but will try it when I swim alone. Your comment that the pull bouy brings you TOO HIGH is puzzling to me though; swimmers who are fast pullers (and there are many who speed up greatly once they put on a pull bouy) generally are so because the buoy lifts their hips up. The pull buoy puts my hips too high in the water; I have plenty of buoyancy on my own. I think the pull buoy most helps swimmers whose hips tend to sink. No problem here! I have used paddles -- no problems with my shoulders -- and will try increasing turnover. My coach has, in the past, suggested that I add a stroke or two per 50m. When I first started swimming, I had a TI inspired coach and I've ended up with too much hesitation in my stroke (easy to kick along and glide) and a tendency to over rotate to breathe. You may also be applying too much pressure on the water before you get to the catch. Been there, done that. I have had that problem. I ended up with a lot of upper back pain which went away as soon as I fixed my stroke. Back to the pool tomorrow with some more to think about. I wish I did have some underwater video but I've never had the courage to really see what I my stroke looks like!

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:33:27 GMT

You may also be applying too much pressure on the water before you get to the catch.

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:48:38 GMT

When I train my distance swimmers and they give me a realistic goal time, they usually achieve it. We have a simple training plan that is easy to monitor and gets the job done (explained below). You'll have to experiment with different pulling patterns to see which one improves your DPS. Since your coach sees a good EVF, I'd experiment by exaggerating the length of time your forearm is outside or away from the midline. Swim 20 X 25 (hold 19 seconds or under per 25 and rest 20 seconds after each (increase the rest by 5 seconds if you cannot make the 19sec or under per 25). As the days progress, maintain 19's but decrease the rest interval by 5 seconds until you only get five rest after each 25 and can make the 19's. You'll have the confidence and the ability to break 25 for the mile. If you can't repeat 19's from a push-off, I think you'd better get some underwater video of your stroke so we can see what's going on. Good luck! Coach T.

RE: Improving propulsion

ande — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:30:41 GMT

put up a video on youtube areas to work on are technique body mind and equipment not sure where to begin not enough facts more data please read swim faster faster ande I'm a masters swimmer who primarily swims distances. I have a strong six beat kick and a relatively weak pull. My kick certainly overpowers my pull as I try to increase my speed. My coach says my pull looks technically correct -- no dropped elbow! I have a long stroke with decent distance per stroke (generally I average 14-15 strokes per 25 meters, up to 16 at faster speeds). Any suggestions on what to try to increase the propulsion of my pull? I bought a pair of the techpaddles and have been using them for about a week, but while I feel stronger, it is too early to tell there will be any resulting increase in speed.

RE: Improving propulsion

gobears — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:33:53 GMT

I know there has been a lengthy discussion about kicking (and I don't want to re-start anything) but, probably the biggest mistake I see recreational swimmers make is trying to kick too hard while swimming longer distances. They kick so hard that they end up getting winded sooner and can't understand why they have to rest so often. I think lots of kick is great for racing and short distances but you don't want your kick to be the main propulsion for your distance swims in practice. The suggestions above seem like good ones.

RE: Improving propulsion

Chris Stevenson — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:15:12 GMT

First off, I'm no coach. Take all the following with a huge grain of salt. It seems to me that your DPS is pretty good. I would work on increasing your turnover while maintaining your DPS. You'll need more power and conditioning from your arms+core to do so. It is not all that uncommon for kick-dominated swimmers to pull more slowly than they swim; I am the same way. Your comment that the pull bouy brings you TOO HIGH is puzzling to me though; swimmers who are fast pullers (and there are many who speed up greatly once they put on a pull bouy) generally are so because the buoy lifts their hips up. Suggestion: assuming your shoulders are okay, try doing some work with paddles alone, without the buoy. Try some shorter repeats with a higher turnover, for swimming-specific conditioning/strength training. Especially good if you have access to a 50m pool. Breate bilaterally on these (eg, every 3).

RE: Improving propulsion

Former Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:28:01 GMT

14/15/16 strokes per 25m sounds like plenty of power. Ease off on the kick a little and see if you are still stay within the stroke count and time. I know lots here want the kick to be the power maker but it is not the propulsive force they say it is. Important yes but it is not the force that moves you, it is the core and upper body. There are lots of ways to build core strength. Here is how the Royal comanados get in shape. www.mattoid.com/.../first_week_of_ten.htm This is from this site www.gettingfitagain.com/ I'm a masters swimmer who primarily swims distances. I have a strong six beat kick and a relatively weak pull. My kick certainly overpowers my pull as I try to increase my speed. My coach says my pull looks technically correct -- no dropped elbow! I have a long stroke with decent distance per stroke (generally I average 14-15 strokes per 25 meters, up to 16 at faster speeds). Any suggestions on what to try to increase the propulsion of my pull? I bought a pair of the techpaddles and have been using them for about a week, but while I feel stronger, it is too early to tell there will be any resulting increase in speed.

RE: Improving propulsion

Allen Stark — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:43:58 GMT

If you have access to a gym most gyms have some sort of pulley machine,use it to duplicate your stroke.Start with low weights as its is really easy to stress your shoulders,but high weight/low rep like 3x8 will build strength fastest.

RE: Improving propulsion

Kurt Dickson — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:32:27 GMT

Vasa Trainer might help or if you want to go cheap, some surgical tubing tied to something (lean over and simulate stroke with several repeats--I believe it really works as it is like weights specific for your arm pull).