Fast swimming in practice/unrested

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Muppet — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:50:27 GMT

i have a tough time going fast in practice. 50s free tend to be 29 or 28high, though I did do a 28.3 timed by our coach today (from a push). i struggle to get under :60 from a push for a fast 100, though it has been done once or twice that I can remember, and can get to 58s from the blocks. meet 100s tend to be in the 54/55 range, with the occasional 53, then down to low 51's or 50highs at nationals. we had to do a 200 from the blocks a few weeks ago at practice; i went 2:03, which actually was not bad at all considering I usually struggle to keep my meet 200s under 2:00 (not a problem this year for some reason). in my case, i think the combination of hair and mesh drag suit don't help me go all that fast in practice. the shave/taper (esp the shave) really helps for nationals. I keep meaning to do a comparison of 100s at practice - with and without a cap.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Dennis Tesch — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:36:02 GMT

Paul I'm training in Sugarhouse (Fairmont) most mornings and Heber City when I can't get to Fairmont. I'm not coaching much (mostly privates), but have been filling in for my high school age group coach since he has moved. I'm actually swimming more now than I have in years. You might see me at a big meet soon!!!

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

ande — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:50:57 GMT

Hi Paul, I was talking to eddie about this, this morning with the racing suits it's hard to tell how tapered his swimmers are. I throw on the racing suit now and then in practice so I'll be used to it in meets, usually jammers sometimes FS II I've noticed hineck fastskins shift my body position, swimmers need to be ready for this, especially in breastroke, last year I kicked air 2 or 3 times on *** in my 100 IM people just need to know what kind of swimmer they are. I think I fall in the category of fast in practice then a little faster in meets I get medium drops from tapering wish I was a huge drop swimmer It's good to wine things down when you taper I'm a Cab fan We'll see, Ande Another interesting thing about this is how many top swimmers put on race suits for almost all their meets these days...and like Ande often in workout for quality days as well. I swim so few meets as well that I almost always wear at least legskins and often a full suit. As for workouts...on rare occasions a jammer but never a full suit for me, there's still something to shaving and putting on a full suit after a taper that is a lot like Xmas morning if you know what I mean! And Fort...NEVER abstain from wine...during a taper is actually the time to break out the good stuff!

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

aquaFeisty — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:21:20 GMT

I picked the 3rd choice, though I'm partway between #2 and #3 because recently I've had some pretty quick, for me, workout swims. In the before-time (before the child) I would often swim fast at in-season meets and maybe drop a second on a 100 at taper, if that. This season is my 3rd season post-kiddo, so based on two data points, I now get a bigger boost from my taper. I don't know if it's due to me working harder the few days a week I actually swim (I do) or because I'm operating at a higher level of general fatigue (I am) or maybe just because I'm older. Breaststroke has always been the most affected by taper for me... and the most affected back when I used to run (running killed my br... I NEVER ran the week before a big meet). But the last 2 seasons I also dropped 2.5 sec off the 100 free at taper time.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:39:51 GMT

And Fort...NEVER abstain from wine...during a taper is actually the time to break out the good stuff! Leslie, Paul is right about the wine. However, I happen to know that he drinks Yellowtail and thinks it is pretty high-end wine. When we get to Austin, Grace & I will show you what REAL winos drink....

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:34:52 GMT

Does this mean I have to enter those damned 50s, Rich? Or, can I just say that a 200 is a sprint?

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 11:35:34 GMT

Mel, I've got some bad news for you. You cant' swim fast in practice You need a rest to work ratio of 8:1 when swimming hard in practice You go 1:12 in the 100 ***, breaking the national record. Man, you're a sprinter!

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:57:37 GMT

I think I'm sort of extreme. I do what I call 'all out' 100s breaststroke starting about 6 weeks before big meets. I literally swim as fast as I can and then take a lot of rest between repeats, typically rest:work = 8:1. The fastest 100 yard BR I have ever swum in practice (at 9000 feet, with a polyester drag suit, unrested and unshaved) is about 1:26.5. Last spring at Federal Way I swam a 1:12.71 in the 100 BR, so that's a drop of nearly 14 seconds in a 100 yard swim. That was a shaved & tapered swim in a FSII body suit. In the past when I used to swim with larger groups I noticed that I could not keep up with other swimmers in practice who I could pretty easily beat in meets. I don't think it is because I'm lazy in practice since I'm usually in before and stay later than most other swimmers. I wish I could go faster in practice but it doesn't happen. Maybe I have the ability to set pain aside in races that I can't do in practice.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Big AL — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 09:26:58 GMT

Yay, my first post.... As far as training hard, I end up training as fast as I can for as long as I can. I prefer to lift weights prior to workout if possible, but do so only 50% of the time. I make sure to get in at least a few hundred warm-up and warm-down, so that doesn't leave much time in between. I wear 3-5 drag suits so training is tougher for the 20,000 yards a week I am currently putting in. I have found it very difficult to become fatigued in a 1 hour Masters workout, so I push it every day. On the other hand, some days (usually by about Thursday) my upper body is completely worn out, so I make it a point to focus on kicking, stroke drill, or an off stroke that doesn't hurt so bad. I've trained this way as long as I can remember without shoulder problems. If something doesn't feel right, I back off and work on drills/technique until things feel good again. I always drop at race time... rested or unrested. Just getting out of a monster drag suit into a fast suit and a prior day of rest is enough for me to get a big boost. Resting 2-3 weeks results in 1.5 to 2.5 sec per 100 improvement from the mid-season swims.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

The Fortress — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 09:14:07 GMT

Leslie, Paul is right about the wine. However, I happen to know that he drinks Yellowtail and thinks it is pretty high-end wine. When we get to Austin, Grace & I will show you what REAL winos drink.... Well, since I've never been on the Clydesdale Taper, I've never abstained from drinking wine at any time even during meets. :wine: Yellowtail though?! Is that for people so tall that they don't have taste buds? :mooning: I always wear fastskins at meets now. Can't stand regular suits for a race. But unlike ande, I never wear them in practice. If it only lasts for a few meets, why wear it out in practice? If I want a race pace feel, fins work. Ha ha ha.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Paul Smith — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 07:53:36 GMT

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Paul Smith — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 06:29:59 GMT

Another interesting thing about this is how many top swimmers put on race suits for almost all their meets these days...and like Ande often in workout for quality days as well. I swim so few meets as well that I almost always wear at least legskins and often a full suit. As for workouts...on rare occasions a jammer but never a full suit for me, there's still something to shaving and putting on a full suit after a taper that is a lot like Xmas morning if you know what I mean! And Fort...NEVER abstain from wine...during a taper is actually the time to break out the good stuff!

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 06:19:52 GMT

I usually swim faster when I am fully tapered. Seems to be on average about 2 seconds faster in hundreds and 4 seconds faster in 200. Recently I just swam a meet, 100 fly at 53.7 and 200 fly at 1:59.14. That was done not rested and from way I felt body broken down and tired. If all goes well next month when Im shaved and tapered I can drop the 2 and 4 second range per hundreds.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

The Fortress — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:59:03 GMT

Paul I have always wondered about this subject from the time I was a swimmer, a university coach, and now a masters swimmer. I was of the type that I could go pretty fast in workout, during the season, and then drop some time at the big taper meet. I was lucky and never really ever had a bad taper... My entire college career I drop time every year. Now that I'm a masters swimmer I still train pretty fast during workout, but I don't get the big drops. This could be that I only swim 2 and 3 times a week when I'm lucky. I coached swimmers who trained like you and some who swam fast all the time. I think the one thing I found with most of the swimmers was that each swimmer pretty much did what they believed they could do. I think each of us choose what best suits our choice of events, our body type, our mental attitude, and then adapt to the coaches (mostly general) plan for the season. Some of us prefer to swim fast all season, which in the end leaves less room for hugh drops. And some of us decide that we are the ones that are going to have the big drops and swim not so fast during the season. Your style of swimming drive coaches a little more nuts during the season, but mine can give a coach heart ache at the last meet hoping for bigger drops. In my heart as a swimmer and as coach I think an athlete would benefit from using both types of training. Getting an athlete to believe during different cycles of their training that need to train and compete as fast you can. Then during another cycle train with the expectations of having bigger drops. I know from swimming with you from time to time that I know I would have benefited from slowing down and working at a more technical pace. I know I train too hard sometimes. I'm sure yardage and body type are important. When I was young doing mega-yardage, I was a crappy workout swimmer and tapered big time with huge drops. Now, I do less yardage, more speedwork, and expect to drop less. But since I'm still new at this, I don't really have a definite masters pattern. Right now, since I don't swim many meets, I'd rather not be utterly broken down for them, so I tend to opt to go faster. I think Dennis' suggestion about doing both types of training is interesting though. Oh yeah, Paul, sit around for 3 weeks getting fat, abstaining from wine, and suffering from endorphin withdrawl sounds real fun. I'll call it the Clydesdale Plan for people about twice my size. :joker:

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Redbird Alum — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:28:34 GMT

I used to work the taper thing, but anymore I'm in it for the fitness and fun of it. My workouts are moderate; I try to focus on technique but not speed, and so the results at meets are no surprise.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

knelson — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:10:47 GMT

I was always a pretty good practice swimmer as a kid and through college. In other words, in college I could hang in workouts, then got slaughtered at meets :) These days I don't swim very fast at mid-season meets or during practice. No faster than my lanemates, anyway. It's pretty typical for me to drop 2-3 seconds per hundred from my in season times to my taper meet times. I'm about 6'2", 180-185 lbs, by the way.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Paul Smith — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:03:52 GMT

Muscle mass/body type is one thing I think plays the biggest part for me and a few other folks I've spoke to about this. I carry a load of about 240lbs and I get terribly broken down in my training...to the point that I need 3 weeks of rest to nail a taper (Fort's getting twitchy just thinking about that much rest!). John on the other hand is a measly 185 and always seems to be able to swim fast...except when he psychs himself out! Hard to say...but for me I have to absolutely 100% believe that I've "banked" the training and the time drops will come, which for the most part has been the case the last few years in spite of some horrible unrested meets (2:08 200m free at mission before dropping to 2:00 at worlds). PS; Mr. Nelson...those times would be from a dive PSS: Dennis....we were just in SLC last week, where are you coaching/training these days?

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Dennis Tesch — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 03:50:03 GMT

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

ande — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 02:28:30 GMT

Hi Paul, yes, I tend to swim fast in practice I hope to drop when I taper but I can't always count on it. Part of it is because of the suit I train in and do fast swims in. I train in a lycra brief, sometimes I wear a FS Jammers and other times my hineck, but I tend to indicate when I switch suits over the years, what I've learned to count on is the faster I swim in practice the faster I'll swim in meets back in 1996 I went 21.7 in the 50 in a meet then rested a month then went 21.0 last year I was 22.30 at zones, but I'm a lot stronger now that I was a year ago from weight training. Also going into nationals, I plan to focus on strength and speed, then finally rest so far this season in a meet I've only been 49.7 in the 100 free I hope to have a decent drop from there I went 25.3 in the 50 bk, at 2007 zones I was 25.7 I've noticed sometimes in longer hard sets instead of falling apart I'll get in a groove, especially on descending swims with decent rest I think that's what happened when I when I went 2:00.9 in a 200 bk in practice last week plus on that set I was 3rd or 4th in my lane, 5 seconds behind Doug Ellis, he's 6 foot / 200 lbs so I'm sure I had a bit of a draft today I did a hard 200 bk and was only 2:04 but I was in a lane by myself my buddy tyler is not great at stepping up on fast swims in practice but he also wears a nylon training suit which is thicker and heavier today he did a 50 fl in 25.2 but he'll be 23 mid in a meet in college John Smith was an amazing workout swimmer and a very consistent mid season meet swimmer. I've noticed every now and then sometimes in practice I'll punch a very swim which I chalk up to timer error or breakthrough Ande Ande....having read your blog and a few others and seeing some of the times you've posted...as well as some of the mnd boggling in season/unrested swims going on this college and USS season I thought I'd bring up the topic of swimming fast in workout and in unrested meets. Having always been a VERY slow workout swimmer as well as a poor untapered swimmer I'm always amazed at how fast others can go in those situations. But I have noticed that those same swimmers don't necessarilly have big drops for meets they rest and shave for. So after seeing Michael Klueh from Texas go 4:11 unrested in the 500, my evil twin go 21.8/47.7 unrested (and at altitude), hearing you went 22.0 50 free and 2:00 in the 200 back at workout the question for everyone is what do you see in your own situations? Note; one thing that a few of us have noticed is that big old clydesadle types like me usually are the ones that drop the most from resting....little jackrabbits like JS swim fast all the time and don't seem to take as big of drops rested.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

gobears — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:12:54 GMT

I don't know about now (as a Master's swimmer) but I must have been a bit of a head case as a youngster. I had quite a lengthy plateau during my last year of high school and first couple of years in college. Fortunately my times were fast enough as they were to qualify me for the big meets but I did swim times equal to my best unrested and in the middle of the season pretty often back then. It was really frustrating. I once swam a 200 breaststroke in practice (race simulated situation swimming against a 200 IM'er) and I equaled my best time (an Olympic Trial qualifying time). I later proceeded to go to Olympic Trials (tapered this time) and swm slower. How sad is that?! When I finally did conquer that time I went 3 full seconds faster but it took me a couple of years. So (sorry for the yappy response) I think tapering was never a magic bullet for me.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 14:31:51 GMT

Hmm .... I think Ian just called John a fitness swimmer. Oops.... OK, one hell of a fast fitness swimmer.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 09:48:06 GMT

Having always been a VERY slow workout swimmer as well as a poor untapered swimmer I'm always amazed at how fast others can go in those situations. But I have noticed that those same swimmers don't necessarilly have big drops for meets they rest and shave for. Hi Paul, If “tapered” includes some sharpening up with very fast, short sprints with long rests, I am exactly the same (at a lower level than you, of course). But I have noticed this phenomenon a lot in masters and always put it down to their never having competed at a high level in their youth and/or their preference for a fitness focus. A very fast ex-competitor up here has told me “they’re fit but they don’t know how to race”. This seems a little glib, however. An unrested meet or two is a good “wake-up call” for the tapered meet. Slow times at those meets bring focus. Still, I’m always nervous my tapered time won’t come down but they usually do – at least, so far. Last year my untapered SCM 50 free was about the same time as my tapered LCM 50 which did OK in the FINA list (faster than the #1 of the age group below mine where everyone seemed to have taken the year off!!! Not tapering???). Not sure about the Clydesdale thing – I’m only 6ft and 165lb but need the tapered rest. Maybe it’s more an age thing – you get tired more easily. Congrats on your SCM season – great times. Ian.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:43:37 GMT

I voted for the second option. As a kid, I loafed practices (if I showed up at all) but could hammer out some good times in the sprints. As an adult, my brother tells me I practice fast. When I taper, I'm quite a bit faster. But now that I think about it, I've only tapered fully for 1 masters meet in 5 years. Sheesh. Hate tapering. Makes me jumpy. Usually I just rest a couple of days and I can go pretty fast (for my liking) on that.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

Former Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:27:09 GMT

Well as a relatively new competitor, I have found I do improve at the meet after some sort of rest/taper plan. I've increased my yardage this year and last weekend went to a meet after swimming for 6 days back to back, I normally swim 3 x a week; I got 2 days rest ahead of the swim. I had also had some sort of flu the week before the intense training. period. At a Zones type facility: My 100FR PB is 1:06:66 (based off of a SCM convert to SCY) My 50FR PB is 28:05 (Converted) Last weekend in a typical Ymca pool: 6 lanes, 10-12ft at the dive, to about 6ft by the turn. I went 1:07:01 and I went a :29.02. I think that considering my PB's came after at least a week or two of lighter swimming as a taper, my times at the meet weren't bad. On my separate sprint workout day I can go just sub 1:10 at my workout pool on a 100FR from a push. So I hope with a good taper and a deeper pool I might do better than my current PB.

RE: Fast swimming in practice/unrested

knelson — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 07:06:25 GMT

Where JS can go sub 50 in practice I'm usually in the 52/53 range. Are we talking from a dive or from a push here?