Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 16:47:23 GMT

Syd, I could have written what you wrote. I'm a 2 beat kicker and until I started reading this thread, couldn't imagine being anything but...and why? So yesterday I was shooting for a 100 here and there of using more kick (I can't count beats...whatever) during my 500s. It was exhausting, having to actually think about my swimming stroke. And during my 25 sprints, I reverted right back to 2 beats. Argh. I doubt I'll ever get it down, but I'll keep trying.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 16:30:38 GMT

Lindsay what I am referring to is breathing is going to cause unbalanced leg action. You will never learn anything swimming slow, if you want to swim fast. The shortcut to balance is not to breathe and swim correctly. Just like in butterfly you will never attain your goals if you do that artificial distance butterfly. I agree totally that butterfly is not a stroke that can be slowed down beyond a point, slowing down applies more to freestyle. I don't know that I'm ready to buy that there is nothing to learn from swimming slow, my argument is that generally if I can't achieve a technique or coordinated timing at a slow speed I probably won't be able to do it fast either. Naturally once I can do it at a slower speed I have to then work on doing it at faster and faster speeds if I want to swim fast. I think a lot of well respected swimmers advocate swimming slow as one component of working on technique. With butterfly I have found that using small fins allows me to swim in a slower more controlled manner than without fins and makes it easier to work on fitting the timing of all the components together, and the fins also allow me to do more repetitions before fatigue causes everything to fall apart. Actually my speed through the water is higher but my stroke rate is slower. My hope is that as my timing and coordination get more solid I will be able to progressively speed up and swim without the fins. I know that I am now getting that "it's working" feeling much more consistently with the fins on and I feel like my butterfly without fins is already improving, but when I swam in a meet back in April when I tried to go fast my arms sped up more than my body and legs and the general timing and therefore undulation fell apart and I reverted back to my old stroke. I hope that this was the result of it being my first swim after three weeks off sick, and just that I wasn't ready for full speed yet. Anyway, I won't know if this approach works or whether I'm just getting better at butterfly with fins for several more weeks at least. Too bad nationals are next week... :( On the plus side, butterfly with fins is fun! :agree:

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 15:34:17 GMT

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 15:24:59 GMT

It will come without thinking about it. Just a point of personal experience, I have found that if I have an ingrained bad habit that when I don't think about it I revert to the bad habit. I think that sometimes one has to figure out a way to avoid that. One common approach is to go super slow until you can do it automatically, then go just a bit faster and stay there until it is automatic again and so on. Starting out with blasting out short distances at high speed might not be the way to go. The whole process can take a long time if you have been practicing the old technique for a long time.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:42:59 GMT

I believe flexibility in the ankle is very important. At least where I train I can see many people trying hard, but with their ankles not stretched. When I relax my ankles are completley stretched.. still with room for movment. If there is an angle of lets say 10-20 degrees and the ankles is very rigid, then it will probably not be so powerful. Just look how a fin move - stretched, but still flexible. Yes, I agree with you. I have been doing a lot of ankle stretching exercises. It has made me faster when I kick with a board but I still have the same kick integration problem when I do full stroke swimming.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:39:19 GMT

When we were trying to get into the sprint mode we had so many swimmers and not enough pool. I always liked the racing dive entry, kick hard spint like the devil for 25 yards or meters with out a breath. Do it over and over again. Your breathing throws off your balance and your legs do all kinds of things. It will come witout thinking about it.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:30:02 GMT

Syd there are some pretty fast swimmers who use a 2 beat kick. All the kicking in the world will not help put the 6 beat kick into place. This can only happen when you swim full stroke (my thoughts only), others may and are allowed to disagree. Why are you trying to count your beats, just kick and swim. The thing is when I just kick and swim my legs start crossing over and I don't think I get any forward propulsion from them at all. I have to really concentrate to keep them side by side and it is exhausting to keep up a 6 beat tempo. It feels like my arms and legs are out of sync. Like my legs are going too fast for my arms. I only do slower sets like this. If I am sprinting I revert back to my old ways. I know this sounds so counterproductive but I just can't swim fast the new way.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:27:12 GMT

As is sometimes the case Geo overstates things but is pretty accurate. A huge part of effectively using your kick is staying balanced ("integrate with stroke"). A sprint kick set for me is taking 4 strokes in a lap and kicking as hard as I can. Not just working on leg strength, but also head position and stroke balance. I warm up with a kick board because I like to see what is going on outsied the pool though!

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:26:42 GMT

Loffe I have never done a forced point. The ankle is very loose and flexible and I let the feet do what ever they do. When I kick down they flex inward and naturally point. When I kick up I let them do what they want and they are not pointed.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:24:17 GMT

I think it's all about the rhythm. I am trying a new thing and I haven't got the rhythm of it yet. At least that's what I am hoping! Or else, I have no hope and I just 'dunno' :dunno:! Maybe I should take up dancing. I am a lousy dancer. Are you good kickers out there good dancers?! But for the time being it feels like patting my head with my one hand and rubbing my stomach with the other: awkward very awkward.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:22:02 GMT

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:21:54 GMT

I just wish someone could teach me how to integrate that kick into my swimming. For years I swam with a two beat crossover kick. I don't think it provided any forward propulsion at all. In fact I would go as far as to say I swam just as fast with a pull buoy as I did without. Recently I have been trying to change to a six beat kick. It feels so awkward and my legs seem to have no connection to my body at all. There seems to be no propulsion at all coming from the left leg and only every now and then do I seem to bite the water with my right foot. It is also exhausting and I can only manage 25m tops.:mad: I believe flexibility in the ankle is very important. At least where I train I can see many people trying hard, but with their ankles not stretched. When I relax my ankles are completley stretched.. still with room for movment. If there is an angle of lets say 10-20 degrees and the ankles is very rigid, then it will probably not be so powerful. Just look how a fin move - stretched, but still flexible.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:15:07 GMT

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:13:39 GMT

I swam only marathon swims from 1963 until 1973. My first races on the marathon circuit I did avery strong six beat kick but the legs cramped up and I could not walk for several days after a race. So I changed the kicking style and started using the legs only for balance. When I was swimming 50m to 1500m In my youth races it was always a strong 6 beat kick. Now I only do 50s and 100s. I only do the 6 beat kick. I only practice kick during full stroke training.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:05:39 GMT

My legs are also high, but if I want to swim really fast I need the support from my legs.. when I do the 200 (or .. did the 200.. many years ago), I always turned on the 6 beat extra hard the last 100 to do a negative split.. only using stroke would not have given me that speed..

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 13:58:37 GMT

I have a 6 beat kick that I usually use. I also use a 4 and a 2 beat kick, I have found they are interchangebale. My legs are always hi no matter how I kicked (I am a level floater). In distance swimming I did not want to consume oxygen when kicking so the legs were used as balancers. For me - my 6 beat kick is the difference between heaven and hell. When the kick drops, well.. then its only downhill...

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 13:53:01 GMT

I guess we can nearly all agree the kickboard is a no, no. The last time I used a kickboard was in 1954. Well... unless the purpose is to have some time to either talk to your buddies or watch people walking by the pool!

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 13:50:22 GMT

I guess we can nearly all agree the kickboard is a no, no. The last time I used a kickboard was in 1954. I totally agree. I threw out the board 20 years ago when I started back swimming with Masters (kinda pinching my neck a lot and causing problems, too.)

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 13:43:39 GMT

Can't quite believe I somehow support Geochuck here + I have won many bets by kicking faster in Free than other people can swim - but this one really threw for a loop (love the last line of the blind path): TRAINING EMPHASIS ON KICKING DOES NOT IMPROVE FREE SWIMMING PERFORMANCE Konstantaki, M., & Winter, E. M. (2007). The effectiveness of a leg-kicking training program on performance and physiological measure of competitive swimmers. International Journal of Sports Science and Coaching, 2, 37-48. This study investigated the at .....] Tests like this are of course interesting to hear about, but.. a) is a test group of total 15 person representative at all of the swimming world? I would assume that a larger group would have been better b) What kind of swimmers were they? Were the even freestylers? c) What level? d) What were their "swimstyle"? Some swimmer are and will forevever be 2beat kickers.. with focus on strong stroke.. e) Did they also work on better combining their newly improved kick into normal swimming? Many questions.. I remember Anders Holmertz from Sweden. One of the best guys in 400m Free in the 80's and early 90's. He had no kick what-so-ever. Putting him on some extra kick focusing training would have been a complete waste of time - as he would never have been able to integrate it into his swimming. Once in a swedish championship, when he was winning with 20m he actually tried to switch to a 6beat kick for fun the last 25m.. and every one had a great time laughing at him.. and so I think he did as well! It does matter what your style is... I believe that if you are used to the 6beat kick THEN working on your kick will probably be beneficial.. but again.. we are all different.. For me - my 6 beat kick is the difference between heaven and hell. When the kick drops, well.. then its only downhill...

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 12:10:35 GMT

While there has been quite a big improvement in my kicking and (probably most importantly) a strengthening of my core and an increase in aerobic capacity as a direct result of kicking sets, I still fear that it hasn't helped me much in my swimming. I think I have got better at kicking with a board but haven't improved much in integrating that kick into my swimming stroke. I can really relate to this observation of Syd's - my kick has gone from worse to bad in isolation, following some months of forcing myself to do some kick in every workout. But on integration into a full stroke, it just uses up breath and I doubt I can swim appreciably quicker full stroke than pulling with a buoy (maybe slower over 300m and longer) . BTW, I ain't no sprinter - no fast twitchers to speak of!

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Chris Stevenson — Fri, 09 May 2008 12:01:40 GMT

The study doesn't suggest that kicking without a board is any better than kicking with one. I do both (with and without board). The current trend seems to denigrate the kickboard but I think it is just fine, helpful to build leg/core strength and conditioning. It can be stressful on shoulders and neck, though; not good to overdo it. I think the key is to kick with intensity. The most common mistake (made by swimmers and coaches alike) is to treat kick sets as recovery between "real" sets.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

knelson — Fri, 09 May 2008 11:53:11 GMT

Kicking training included no equipment and equipment (e.g., boards and fins). The study doesn't suggest that kicking without a board is any better than kicking with one.

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Big AL — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:44:39 GMT

One thing I did that I think helped was to throw away the kickboard. I'll grab one out of the bin on (rare) occasion, but by-in-large do all my kicking boardless. While it might be a little slower and doesn't promote social kicking, kicking without a board puts your body in a more realistic swimming position. Skip I totally agree. I threw out the board 20 years ago when I started back swimming with Masters (kinda pinching my neck a lot and causing problems, too.)

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

smontanaro — Fri, 09 May 2008 09:32:47 GMT

RE: Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

Former Member — Fri, 09 May 2008 06:46:33 GMT

The wonderful thing is that almost every one is right. I like to see instant fix.