knee pain and zoomers?

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:11:22 GMT

My understanding is that shoulder problems are not caused by fully extending but rather by attempting to catch and apply force at or near full extension. You may want to think about full extension as a streamlining strategy rather than as a way to extend the range of your pull. Shoulder issues can be very swimmer-specific, does full extension cause shoulder issues for you? I guess for me it felt like it did at least on Thursday. Anyway I think the issue is I trust one of the swim instructors more than the other prob because that one has had shoulder probs herself and seems a bit more qualified I don't know I guess that's important too. Thanks for your feedback. Misha

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:49:20 GMT

Hi guys, long time no post I know. I had a quick question - I've been working with one swim instructor but have also tried another while one was on vacation and I have a question. The first instructor advised me to not do a full reach out with my arm when I enter the water as this can cause shoulder probs, but the second instructor said I _should_ do a full reach and that as long as my body rolls while I am reaching it is better to do a full reach. I feel like the second instructor is incorrect, but I'm not sure. Any comments/opinions? There are other factors influencing my decision b/w the instructors (pool, availability) but I don't want to get taught the wrong thing. Thank you Misha

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:58:23 GMT

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:37:03 GMT

You might try practicing dolphin kicking, that might give you better feedback on how to achieve propulsion and it's easier to think about and feel what you are doing when moving both legs in unison. As George said, a proper kick is a sort of whipping action, you kick down with your knee first and then the foot, and the knee actually starts up again while the foot is going down (otherwise you will end up with a very deep kick). Think of the bend in the knee coming mostly from the downward movement of the knee rather than an upward movement of the foot. Your leg should be pretty much straight during the upward movement.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:24:43 GMT

Of course the knees bend when you kick. The whole leg is involved, the ankles and the foot. From the hip down everthing is moving in a whipping action. Look at the flex in Klims foot action. Nothing is locked. video.google.ca/videoplay

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:05:30 GMT

In the short side clip it looks like you weren't keeping your ankles/feet/toes pointed, at some points the feet were in a standing-like right angle to the lower leg. It is hard to tell from the videos but it looks like you might be kicking predominantly from the knee, it looks like most of the movement is occurring below the knee, with little bend at the hip and little visible movement of the upper leg. Have your new instructor check if this is the case. Look at the videos Ande posted in his SDK thread, the motion should be similar in flutter kick, just with alternating legs. Do your knees break the surface when you kick on your back? The propulsion in kicking comes from the forward movement much more than the backward motion regardless of whether you are on your front or back so I don't think the quad vs ham strength is the issue. Generally it is easier to kick water up into the air than it is to kick it down into the depths, so there is less resistance for your leg to push against. I don't know if 1.5 times slower is normal though. I usually wear a sock when I wear fins because otherwise the skin rubs off my foot in one place or another, not blisters really but a problem. I like the short somewhat thick ones used for running for example. That's solved my problem unless I go kick crazy. I also find dolphin kicking causes less abrasion than flutter kicking and do more of the former. With a good instructor you should make quick progress, good luck! See it's interesting b/c I'm sure you are right about my full stroke kick (although honestly in full stroke I really don't think there's much of a "kick" for me I move my legs but they don't propulse; the other day I noticed when I was trying to do full stroke with fins I realized the moment I stopped the stroke I actually just stopped kicking period) and the knees, but interestingly when I "flutter kick" just by itself I don't bend the knees at all (basically keep my legs straight). I see in the SDK videos this is not the case, and I know that in this thread too I was told that locking knees is bad so I've been trying to not "lock them" lock them but then I guess I am either tempted to kick from the knee or just am not getting any sort of propulsion... I can't seem to figure out how to _both_ not keeping my legs absolutely straight and not kick from the knee. I'll have to make sure when I kick on the back but I'm pretty sure no part of my legs including my knees breaks the surface when I kick on my back. Should something be? Thanks Misha

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:24:09 GMT

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:01:48 GMT

So I've still been trying to work on modifying my technique, although I have a hard time doing it with so little yardage but have made the plunge and paid to hire an instructor for a few lessons hopefully they can help. Meanwhile I noticed something interesting about my kicking (besides the interesting fact that the moment I start my arm stroke I almost stop kicking entirely which I have been working to correct as well; my "flutter kick" by itself I believe is actually quite different from the swimming videos as I don't really propulsively kick in full swimming at all). In any case, what I noticed is that when I flutter kick on my back it seems to take almost 1.5 times as long to do 25 yd (won't post the horrible time) vs when I do it on my stomach. I was wondering is there a common flutter technique flaw that could explain this (maybe splashing is giving me propulsion), or is it simply that my hamstrings are weaker than my quads? Thanks Misha p.s. And interestingly contrary to what seems to be true for everyone else the Zura Alphas _do_ give me blisters (and I have been very careful about working them in and currently only do slow-medium kicking in Zuras and all my sprint work finless). Just fyi. Although I think in all fairness it is _fewer_ blisters than the Zoomers did.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:10:50 GMT

Thanks guys for all your suggestions. I will try some tomorrow night and let you know how it goes. Misha P.S. Btw would someone mind explaining not "dropping the elbow" to me? Does it literally refer to keeping the elbow _in front of_ the hand (in the direction in which the swimmer is travelling) during the stroke (like "reaching over a barrel" I guess)? Just want to make sure I have this concept right as it seems something that can lead to shoulder probs. Thanks.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:11:24 GMT

A dropped elbow during the pull phase refers to a failure to keep your forearm perpendicular to the water during the pull. The most extreme example is a dog-paddle-like arm position where the elbow is leading the hand. If you are standing on deck demonstrating the pull movement and drop your elbow so that your forearm is not parallel to the ground you are demonstrating a dropped elbow. Wow, I clearly did not understand this concept at all then. I think this might be a clue (among others) as to why I developed shoulder problems. Thanks a lot for the clarification. Misha p.s. here are some full speed videos btw. I can very very clearly see the weaving back & forth here: video.google.com/videoplay video.google.com/videoplay video.google.com/videoplay video.google.com/videoplay

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:06:03 GMT

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:29:27 GMT

The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal. And if you look at my posts earlier I have been to the orthopedist several times (doctor), was in PT for 6 weeks which I still do daily at home (resistive bands/light weights and ice daily) and about 2 months ago my ortho gave me a steroid shot since PT was not helping and the shot seemed to help quite a bit. Now I _only_ get pain the day after I swim (even as little as 6 laps) hence why I think the stroke correction might help. When I tried keeping my hands on the black line two days ago and swam a littleeeeeee bit (under 10 laps I believe) also with the swimmers snorkel to focus completely on the stroke my arm seemed better the next day than had I done my usual stroke. Misha EDIT: Sorry JMiller I actually never mentioned this stuff before. Luckily my school gives excellent insurance so I have ortho/PT for $25 copay (which still added up but this is still relatively cheap compared to how much they charge and it is a PPO not HMO so no referral).

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:31:36 GMT

In this video you drop the elbow during the catch phase, video.google.com/videoplay Most problems with the body are caused by improper technique. Go see the doctor maybe a good idea but as my doctor told me don't swim. It did not cure anything what I did was change how I swam. The secret is to prevent the injury. I see many reasons why he has problems. Eliminate stress in the stroke it will eliminate pain. The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:22:54 GMT

Thanks ahead of time for all your suggestions on my stroke and particularly how it might be aggravating my biceps tendonitis! :) The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:10:38 GMT

I am by no means an expert. But on the video, it looks to me like your flutter kick may be too wide and that you are not kicking from your hips. If you think of narrowing the range of your kick and think of kicking from your hip (as opposed to straightening your knee), maybe that would help? FYI, I have been doing a lot of kick sets lately as I'm just coming back after several months away from the pool. I also have a problematic knee. Kicking with zoomers shouldn't hurt. I only kick with them and sometimes will do several sets of 500 . . . I kick on my back and use the zoomers to help me feel the kick from my hip and to help stretch my ankles. It's amazing how much flexibility you can lose when you stop swimming for awhile.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:09:28 GMT

Is there no one willing to help. He has posted some good videos and no one has commented??? I have done a little by personal messaging. No prob thanks a lot for comment already. I think I see what you mean I think my head is moving back and forth somewhat instead of going perfectly straight and the body follows it. Somewhat higher res: Front: video.google.com/videoplay Side: video.google.com/videoplay 70 degrees from Front: video.google.com/videoplay Side/Camera Follows: video.google.com/videoplay Actual AVIs (highest res, takes longer to load) Front blip.tv/.../660892 Side blip.tv/.../660901 70 degrees misha680.blip.tv/.../660902 Side Follow blip.tv/.../663745

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:23:06 GMT

Perhaps the slow motion is throwing me off and I am completely off base but my guess at what you should work on is smoother integration of your arms, roll, and kick. The relative timing of your arms and roll varies somewhat from one stroke to the next. I could be totally wrong but the impression I get is that you are concentrating on moving your arms through the S pull pattern, which I think George is correct is too exaggerated. What I would suggest you try is working on integrating your arm recovery and pull with your body roll. One way to do that is to do a drill where you add a short glide phase to each arm pull and really concentrate on arm extension in front - don't just extend the arm forward but push the whole shoulder forward as if you are reaching for something on a high shelf just out of reach. Concentrate on extending out front at the same time you are finishing with the other arm and glide for about a second with one arm fully extended and the other remaining at your hip - this should give you a good feel for how the arms and body roll can integrate together smoothly. After the glide start your catch and the recovery of the other arm at the same time. To go to full stroke just eliminate the glide. Don't think about following an S pattern, think about moving your arm into a position where your whole forearm is perpendicular to the direction you are traveling in, sometimes called Early Vertical Forearm but the forearm doesn't have to be vertical just perpendicular to the direction you are swimming. Think about getting your elbow out to the side early, the S component is just part of this action. See youtube.com/watch Anyway, just something to try, see if it works for you.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:04:23 GMT

First vid swimming head on the body is fishtailing. Keep the body strait. Sorry can't do more today off for the evening. No prob thanks a lot for comment already. I think I see what you mean I think my head is moving back and forth somewhat instead of going perfectly straight and the body follows it. Somewhat higher res: Front: video.google.com/videoplay Side: video.google.com/videoplay 70 degrees from Front: video.google.com/videoplay Side/Camera Follows: video.google.com/videoplay Actual AVIs (highest res, takes longer to load) Front blip.tv/.../660892 Side blip.tv/.../660901 70 degrees misha680.blip.tv/.../660902 Side Follow blip.tv/.../663745

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:52:08 GMT

Re head on video. I would like both hands to follow the black lane line on the bottom of the pool. Your left arm really goes out wide and changes your head and legs into a fishtale side to side motion. Your right arm is a little better. The "S" motion is very exagerated and I think if you watch other swimmers you will see that their "S" motion almost looks like an "I" stroke that follows the lane marker line on the bottom of the pool. Thanks. I was just trying to figure out the elbow drop in the fourth vid and I think it is related to this as well somewhat. Interestingly it is in fact the _left_ arm where I have the biceps tendonitis; the right one is just fine (had supraspinatus tendonitis quite mild when I was only breathing on one side quite some time ago; wasn't serious enough to keep me from swimming though and I fixed this by turning my palms out when I enter water and breathing on both sides). I found a video that was helpful to look at someone's freestyle where they keep both arms close to the center line and don't drop their elbows: www.youtube.com/watch Thanks a lot for your comments! :) Misha EDIT/UPDATE: So I tried doing some swimming in the pool with a finis swimmer's snorkel and focus on keeping my hands at the black line in the middle of the pool. I think I was doing a pretty good job but it's hard to change something so ingrained I guess. Also I feel like I was dropping my left elbow sometimes (don't know if I really was or not but I felt that I was). Anyways, any drills you recommend would be great too if you feel they could be helpful. Will keep trying it and will see how my shoulder is feeling tomorrow too

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:24:58 GMT

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:33:23 GMT

On the fourth vid your left elbow drops midway through the catch phase. It's 12:30am goodnight see you tomorrow.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:32:51 GMT

First vid swimming head on the body is fishtailing. Keep the body strait. Sorry can't do more today off for the evening.

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:21:04 GMT

Alright as promised here are my videos. They are all in slow motion (half speed). Now that I have learned how to edit the videos (to slow them down for example or at normal speed) if anything else would be helpful (slower, different part, etc.) I can upload that. I can see if I can up the quality too (not sure but in the conversion/editing/upload process it seems a little worse quality than the files I started with). Thanks ahead of time for all your suggestions on my stroke and particularly how it might be aggravating my biceps tendonitis! :) Swimming from front (slow motion) www.youtube.com/watch Swimming from side (slow motion) www.youtube.com/watch Swimming from 70 degree angle from front (slow motion) www.youtube.com/watch Swimming from side then camera following me as I pass (didn't mean to do this but person filming me misunderstood my instructions so I hope it might be helpful too) www.youtube.com/watch Thanks a lot! Misha

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 17:04:00 GMT

Thanks for all the valuable suggestions guys and the discussions about Zoomers for kicking vs swimming. Certainly overdoing it 0% fins to 100% fins I am sure aggravated my knee but I am also probably going to try a different fin route (I actually ordered some Zura Alphas and will return the Zoomers as I bought them local so I should not be in the hole too much; I didn't mention that the Zoomers did cause me quite a bit of blistering too even with gobs of vasoline on my feet and although I was willing to figure out how to deal with it I guess it's better if I don't have to). Anyway, I am having a hard time figuring out a way to video tape my stroke without paying the coach $150 for the analysis as well. Should I be checking out pools or is it usually individual coaches that have these cameras? I am in the Houston area if it helps. I would just really like to not spend $150 right now (or at least get the videotapes, see what you guys think, and then if really you think it would be very very helpful then I can try to go for the $150). I really do miss swimming though and if I can fix my stroke that would be nice. That was the nice thing about the kicking with fins... it was actually kind of fun again (as opposed to kicking without fins, which for me is still quite an ordeal even though I am improving... there's just something about feeling like you're _traveling_ when kicking and not crawling at a slow-moderate pace that makes it more fun/exciting). Thanks Misha

RE: knee pain and zoomers?

Former Member — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:57:06 GMT

Any digital camera will do as long as it has video mode. They all do, get some short 10 sec shots from three above water angles. Download to your picture file then to you tube and post. Underwater shots would help but you need something that is waterproof. This is a video taken with a cheapy Kodak camera oregonmasters.ning.com/.../show Thanks, I will try to do this on Saturday. We have a pretty nice camera in the lab, as long as no one needs it for the microscope (I still have to ask one person). Misha