Spitting in opponent's lane

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 17:08:18 GMT

Is it (was it) a mixed-gender heat? If you go sub-5:05, in what lane would you most likely be? What if the lane next to you goes sub-their own private time? Do they get to celebrate in a similar fashion? Don't wowwweee, I don't swim 500's. Usually, I'm in the last heat with the men (and in a pretty good lane.) Although, I've had a wall lane in the past, that was in a USA-S meet with a made up seed time. If I can dish it out, I'd better be able to take it. :joker:

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:58:30 GMT

Is butt slapping your competition post the race considered unsportsmanlike? I'd feel like doing that if I ever go sub 5:05 in the 500. :rofl: Is it (was it) a mixed-gender heat? If you go sub-5:05, in what lane would you most likely be? What if the lane next to you goes sub-their own private time? Do they get to celebrate in a similar fashion? Don't wowwweee, I don't swim 500's.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:55:37 GMT

I almost did that this past weekend to one of the college kids. Opted not to, as he is a froshie, so probably a bit insecure about that sort of thing (not to mention the fact that he put a hurting on me in the 50 fly). The thought of that makes me :lmao: But, probably wise you didn't. I've adopted the "very serious" attitude when practicing or competing with the kids as I don't want to give the coaches any excuse to prevent me from swimming with them. I will leave my childish pranks for you guys. :p

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:42:19 GMT

Depends on the paddle size and velocity... I think it would be the competitor's response.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:25:09 GMT

Is butt slapping your competition post the race considered unsportsmanlike? Depends on the paddle size and velocity...

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:20:46 GMT

“Any swimmer who acts in an unsportsmanlike or unsafe manner within the swimming venue may be considered for appropriate action or penalty by the referee.” Is butt slapping your competition post the race considered unsportsmanlike? I'd feel like doing that if I ever go sub 5:05 in the 500. :rofl:

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Muppet — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 11:13:46 GMT

Is butt slapping your competition post the race considered unsportsmanlike? I almost did that this past weekend to one of the college kids. Opted not to, as he is a froshie, so probably a bit insecure about that sort of thing (not to mention the fact that he put a hurting on me in the 50 fly).

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:30:58 GMT

This weekend for example, I was at a high school state regional meet, and a swimmer I DQed for a nonsimultaneous touch asked me about it between prelims and finals. I explained to him what I saw, and the conversation ended. His coach however apologized to me afterwards, and said she was disappointed by his speaking with me. I explained that I didn't have a problem with it. Patrick King Very interesting example. Never heard of a coach not wanting their swimmer to speak with the judge as to why the DQ - much less have the coach be disappointed in their swimmer for taking that initiative! I always encouraged swimmers to ask the why behind the DQ. Was this coach very green? In most cases, I think the swimmers want to understand what they did wrong so they can learn from it and correct it in the future. Very few are looking for a John McEnroe-type encounter. I'm very familiar with the DQ slips. It's not 100% self explanatory - particularly to a young swimmer. If it were me, I'd also like to hear it from the official, provided they have the time to briefly explain the infraction. I think it was excellent that you took the time to explain the infraction. Thank you for officiating. It's an incredibly challenging job. I say this from a past coach and current swimmer perspective. You guys work your tails off. :notworthy::notworthy:

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

orca1946 — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 05:43:11 GMT

Almost all ref I have spoken with wiil speak directly to the DQ ed swimmer as to the infraction!

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Muppet — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:00:35 GMT

The thought of that makes me :lmao: But, probably wise you didn't. I've adopted the "very serious" attitude when practicing or competing with the kids as I don't want to give the coaches any excuse to prevent me from swimming with them. I will leave my childish pranks for you guys. :p yeah, that is probably a good idea. since i don't swim with my uss team, i just gotta make sure I don't embarass myself too badly or do anything that would get them in trouble. some of the perks i get are that my coach gets to supply me with alcohol at bars/restaurants after the meet, and I also get to be romantically involved with my coach. :groovy:

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:53:26 GMT

I don't see how any of those things are comparable at all. Yeah, Phelps' DUI was stupid and I hope he learned his lesson. It's about elite swimmers and their choices while their audience of young swimmers watch and learn. I can live through swimming in the spit lane. DUI lane, not so much. :doh: I can't condemn AVD for what seems to me to be a silly nuance in comparison to other, for lack of a better word, "juicy" actions. BTW, the nude photos don't bother me at all. Totally their choice. DUI, quite another story.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:01:52 GMT

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

aquageek — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:47:54 GMT

Which one of the following 4 phone calls would you as a parent rather receive: 1. Hi Dad, I'm at jail for drunk driving, come bail me out. 2. Hi Dad, I'm posing for Playboy, go buy a copy and check out my cones, etc. 3. Hi Dad, I've made some sex tapes, check 'em out on the net. 4. Hi Dad, I spit in the girl's lane next to me.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:35:09 GMT

There's a difference between in-competition and out-of-competition conduct. Patrick King I thought of that point prior to any response I made. Technically, you are correct in that there is a difference. However, common sense dictates that well known, famous swimmers if you will, are in the public eye, at all times. Their actions are noted both in and out of the pool. You're certainly free not to agree that this is the way things should be. The rules could be amended to further loosen unsportsmanlike conduct; Patrick King Never said I agreed or not with how officials should run their meets or interpret the rules. I think officials should rule as they see fit. I assumed she would have been DQ'd if she'd been non-compliant with the rules. Are you saying she should have been DQ'd but got lucky b/c the officials had their backs turned? Or did they deem the act as a simple pre-race ritual without malicious intent and no action was needed? Or was she DQ'd and I just don't know about it? Rob, thanks for clarifying. I saw competitors do that kind of ritual at JR Nationals and various other meets I attended in the '80s. I didn't think twice about it. I could give a darn as to how the officials want to run their meet or interpret the rules. Heck, I've had bunches of my swims thrown out and it wasn't even for unsportsmanlike conduct. I personally hope to swim; congratulate the people who kick my butt; and hope that someone measured the pool so maybe my times will count for USMS. Officials can tighten or loosen up rules to their hearts content. for example, we could condone intentional taunting acts. Patrick King Like Gary Hall Jr's taunting "air guitar," Inky's hissing, or Kitajima's primal scream? So classic.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

knelson — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:22:23 GMT

I don't see how any of those things are comparable at all. Yeah, Phelps' DUI was stupid and I hope he learned his lesson. Beard appearing in Playboy was a personal decision that only affected her. I've got no problems with nudity and if you've seen the photos you know they were pretty tame. I think whoever made the Manaudou photos public should be ashamed, but on the other hand I think if you let someone take compromising photos of you you should be prepared for them to get out there. Spitting in an opponent's lane might be a pretty minor thing in the overall scheme of things, but I think it shows a lot about that person. I just think it shows complete disrespect for your competitor.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Chris Stevenson — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:36:16 GMT

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

The Fortress — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:28:19 GMT

I thought it was actually somewhat comical. It certainly didn't seem to have the intended effect.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

pakman044 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:26:21 GMT

I thought of that point prior to any response I made. Technically, you are correct in that there is a difference. However, common sense dictates that well known, famous swimmers if you will, are in the public eye, at all times. Their actions are noted both in and out of the pool. Never said I agreed or not with how officials should run their meets or interpret the rules. I think officials should rule as they see fit. I assumed she would have been DQ'd if she'd been non-compliant with the rules. Are you saying she should have been DQ'd but got lucky b/c the officials had their backs turned? Or did they deem the act as a simple pre-race ritual without malicious intent and no action was needed? Or was she DQ'd and I just don't know about it? Rob, thanks for clarifying. I saw competitors do that kind of ritual at JR Nationals and various other meets I attended in the '80s. I didn't think twice about it. I could give a darn as to how the officials want to run their meet or interpret the rules. Heck, I've had bunches of my swims thrown out and it wasn't even for unsportsmanlike conduct. I personally hope to swim; congratulate the people who kick my butt; and hope that someone measured the pool so maybe my times will count for USMS. Officials can tighten or loosen up rules to their hearts content. Like Gary Hall Jr's taunting "air guitar," Inky's hissing, or Kitajima's primal scream? So classic. Fair enough. Assuming for the purpose of the argument that we're handling intentional acts with the direction at someone else, there are still bigger issues to handle as you suggest. And there these situations aren't really black and white either. It's certainly nicer when they are, but the black and white is created as when there is doubt, it goes to the swimmer. As for DQing, not every infraction of the rules necessarily results in a DQ. Infractions of stroke form rules certainly result in DQ's (assuming they're seen!), but not everything else necessarily does. Where to draw the line is very tough, and certainly different levels of competition have different thresholds (whether they should is another matter). If you can make the situation right without a DQ, it's generally a better idea; I know from many DQ slips that I've gotten that it's not fun. As for Ms. Van Dyken, I never saw any of this first hand (my youth betrays me; I was about 12 during the '96 Olympics!), so I assume for the purposes of the argument about a theoretical intentional situation. The reality is that this is a judgement call based on the situation. It depends on what happened; it depends on what the officials saw; and it depends on what the referee thinks about the observations. I could give a darn as to how the officials want to run their meet or interpret the rules. Well you really shouldn't have to care; it should be fairly uniform and transparent, although certain aspects of the business aren't unfortunately. That kind of thing troubles me because I still swim, and I know how I would feel. This weekend for example, I was at a high school state regional meet, and a swimmer I DQed for a nonsimultaneous touch asked me about it between prelims and finals. I explained to him what I saw, and the conversation ended. His coach however apologized to me afterwards, and said she was disappointed by his speaking with me. I explained that I didn't have a problem with it. Now I understand the coach's point of view: a swimmer who speaks with the officials could get himself into trouble if he verges on unsporting conduct. But I was not very happy with the implication of that kind of perspective. It leaves the swimmer in a vacuum, and makes the system very opaque. Those DQ slips don't convey very much information, and many referees like the bare minimum on the slip. And increasingly, the slip is written by someone else, which is given to the coach (not the swimmer). That kind of opacity I think is not really a good thing. On the whole though, to look at this from a Masters perspective, my one experience swimming in a Masters meet was a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Even when I didn't have a turn counter, one of the turn judges did my turn counting for me--something I'd never seen before in my years of swimming, among other things. But to shorten this reply, I probably went a little too far initially in my harshness, although the central idea is that there is still an expectation of a certain kind of decorum on the pool deck. Maybe I'll run into you sometime. I'd enjoy getting my tail lapped multiple times by you! Patrick King

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:22:28 GMT

I think spitting in an opponent's lane also is a direct reflection of the swimmers coach. Spitting in an opponent's lane should be immediate disqualification. I would hate to see swimming follow the footsteps of professional football and basketball, although these sports have seemed to clean up some in the last year.

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

pakman044 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:39:27 GMT

Anyway, I put three and a half cents into this discussion and should have stopped at a half cent!!! Na, your position is just as valid as everyone else's. These are judgment calls for a reason, and there really aren't any right or wrong answers per se to these situations. Patrick King

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Former Member — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:13:22 GMT

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

Iwannafly — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:03:24 GMT

Good points and I probably should have known that there was a rule governing sportsmanship. There is in nearly every other sport. I tend to not put my two cents into these kind of discussions, but this one just grabbed my attention. I have never seen Amy 'spit', so I may have over reacted (not that I've ever done that before:dunno:). I get amused watching athletes with over the top celebrations. Just last night I watched any number of Patriots players celebrate after some great play. It had to make the Giants' win seem that much sweeter. I don't know, I feel like if you're talented enough to win and you've put in the work to win, then you let your swim do the talking and after you win, you congratulate your competitors graciously (and in the case of the football game, you wait to celebrate until after the game is over!). The truth is, the article that started this thread, painted a pretty positive picture of Amy. I had more respect for her after reading it because it talked about how hard she had to work and the fact that she was kind of an outsider as a kid. I can relate to being an outsider. I was never an elite level athlete and never will be, but I have to believe that the drive required to compete at that level does not have to come at the expense of being a decent person. As an aside, I think the hot-headed 13-14 year old fight is far less despicable than a parent attacking an official because of a 'bad' call. Anyway, I put three and a half cents into this discussion and should have stopped at a half cent!!!

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

The Fortress — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 05:26:52 GMT

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

pakman044 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 04:53:36 GMT

So is it safe to assume that those of you who have issues with the spitting in the lane thing have some major problems with Phelps's DUI (although it certainly has not hindered his winning numerous awards), Beard's playboy spread, and Laure Manaudou's photos? Lane spitting seems so lame and tame next to these acts. . . . There's a difference between in-competition and out-of-competition conduct. Those issues are out-of-competition issues and are measured as other out-of-competition conduct issues are adjudicated. The last time I checked, DUI is a criminal act in most jurisdictions. The latter two issues are, to my knowledge, not illegal. They're not exactly in the best of taste, but both the United States and France are free countries. In-competition conduct is another matter. It is governed by different rules and things you can do that are not illegal in the outside world are not fine on the pool deck or pool. Discretion and judgement are used on the pool deck to determine what situations slide and what get further attention, and then to determine what's to be done (you don't have to DQ someone in this case; you can ask someone not to do something. Most sensible people do what a referee says when (s)he asks you not to do something!). You're certainly free not to agree that this is the way things should be. The rules could be amended to further loosen unsportsmanlike conduct; for example, we could condone intentional taunting acts. Preswim fistfights might liven things up for sure. Until the rules are changed, these kinds of things should be curtailed. Patrick King

RE: Spitting in opponent's lane

pakman044 — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 04:32:44 GMT

No there's not. But there's no rule that says you have good sportsmanship either. It's poor sportsmanship in my opinion, but that, to me, is a reflection on her coach and on her parents! My dad would have beat my a** if I had spit in my competitor's lane! Maybe it's just the way I was raised, but I would rather quietly beat someone like that and then shake their hand afterward to congratulate them on a good race! I don't think it warrants a disqualification, but I certainly wouldn't want my child looking up to her despite the fact that she has some truly outstanding qualities, i.e. work ethic, community service... I respect her because she rose through the ranks on hard work and determination rather than on pure talent, but I don't respect her as a good sport! Well actually, there is a rule prohibiting unsportsmanlike conduct: Any swimmer who acts in an unsportsmanlike or unsafe manner within the swimming venue may be considered for appropriate action or penalty by the referee. But to reach this rule, you need to have the referee or other official i) observe the conduct and ii) feel that it rises to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. And then the referee would need to determine what the "appropriate action or penalty" is. In this case, that might only be a warning (there are bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things, although this verges on taunting). In addition, to toss another metric into this, the age and level of competitors as well as the nature of the act must be considered. For example, if I see you spit into someone else's lane in high school (where the intent of the rules and penalties are stiffer), the referee is certainly hearing about this, and I may be recommending a disqualification from further competition (a gesture that verges on taunting directed towards another competitor). More leniency may be allowed in other settings (whether this is a good idea is another issue). Stepping away from the rules, this kind of conduct is not okay, and none of us should really be condoning it, whether explicitly or implicitly. I'm just as guilty of looking the other way if I'm busy (there are far too many things going on at start end of a race) and it doesn't seem "important". Even if all I do is urge the person not to do what they're doing, I need to do that, irregardless of whether I need to be doing something else at the same time. Patrick King