Counting board pacing - illegal?

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Redbird Alum — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 12:16:34 GMT

Are there any rules that prohibit your counter in the 500/1000/1650 from doing board movements to let you know where you are in your pace strategy? No rule exists about moving the lap counting cards. That said, I believe that using the lap counter for displaying splits is a clear violation of both the spirit and letter of the rules regarding use of a pacing device. The swimmer should be disqualified.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

ourswimmer — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:59:52 GMT

There are probably a lot of other facilities where if you look hard enough, you can catch a glimpse at some point in your race. There sure are, especially when you are swimming on your back. That guy we saw swim the 1500SCM backstroke last weekend could have known (and probably did know) his splits for every 50. I bet he picked it up after 1000 because he saw that 1000 split and said, "hey, I can go under 21:00 if I just kick a little harder." (And in fact he did, approximately tying the time I swam on my front.)

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:29:33 GMT

At both Indy and Fed Way, you can catch splits off the timing display that are located high up the wall. There are probably a lot of other facilities where if you look hard enough, you can catch a glimpse at some point in your race.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

pakman044 — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:56:34 GMT

I swam a 1650 at a pool that had a clock on the wall at the starting end of the pool. It was connected to the timing system and was displaying the running time of my event. I could see it every time my first breath off the walls. It DEFINITELY helped me, since I could tell how fast I was going and, as I got closer to the end, that if I went faster, I'd be under 19:00. Its not a counter, per se, but could certainly be construed as an illegally-placed pacing device. I'm still not taking that as an illegal pace-keeping device. This is part of the facility, not a device that is brought by a particular swimmer. We have to dig a little further into the rules to explain this though: 107.16 PACE CLOCKS There shall be at least two large, accurate timing devices or clocks for each warm-up course, preferably located on opposite sides of the course, clearly visible to all swimmers. Also, USMS 107.17.5 mentions the requirements for the time display board (required only for national championship meets). And while the clock you mentioned is not a part of that specification, I do not read that rule to prohibit additional timing display readouts. If you go to the USA Swimming Rules & Regulations (2007 rulebook), USA-S 103.17 recommends the pace clocks to be on either side of the course (presumably race course). Certainly those clocks could be viewed by someone in the race course. I don't think anyone's going to advocate that a USA Swimming compliant facility is not going to be acceptable for a Masters meet. So certainly pace clock placement or scoreboard placement could disparately aid swimmers. But that's the reality of the facility. Let's say a meet is held in a pool where, say lanes 1 and 2 are 4 feet deep the entire way, and lanes 7 and 8 are 8 feet deep the entire way, with 3-6 tapered in depth. That kind of pool setup is legal, although you better believe that you're disadvantaged in lane 1. Some people benefitting more than others does not an infraction make. What about deaf people and verbal counters? I know I can't hear anything once I get in the water. Someone who is deaf or hard of hearing could get a rule adjustment via Article 108. Allowing a visual signal of the time for such a swimmer would be in my opinion a reasonable accomodation (although I have to note that I have NO experience with what reasonable accomodations are for disability swimmers!). (I also agree with you that I'd never be able to hear a verbal count--I was leading a 500 once into the "bell" lap; the starter fired the recall pistol for the warning signal, but I never heard it!) The rules to not specifically outlaw using the counterboard to display splits. The rules permit someone to signal intermittent times to a swimmer. The rules do not explain further and say how they can or cannot make the signal. Therefore, I think if I were to be DQ'd for this, I would have a strong leg on which to get that DQ overruled, and every USMS official I have talked to about this has said it would be acceptable. I suppose if you took a really strict interpretation and said, "well, it doesn't say I CAN'T do this, so I suppose I can", you could go that way. But 102.10.6 governs what the counters can do. It says that a visual counter may be appointed to count lengths by visual sign or call lengths (102.10.6A), and that "verbal counters ... may use watches and signal intermediate times to the swimmer" (102.10.6B). What kind of "signal" is this? Since this is a signal given by a "verbal counter", it's a verbal signal. Those are two kinds of people the rules talk about counting (the rule is also identical to USA-S 102.5.6). Now what does this silence about other things mean? I take the silence to mean that since the rule permits certain kinds of counters doing certain things, it implicitly prohibits other kinds of counters doing other things. Otherwise, why would this rule exist? But as I mentioned earlier, to disqualify someone because of an infraction of this rule is silly. Requesting the counter to abide by 102.10.6 is the best way to handle it. If only weird lap counting were the most of my concerns when I judge at meets.... Patrick King

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:09:38 GMT

I can see a day, down the road a bit, where our touchpads will have an automatic counter in one corner that changes after each turn and with that, in another corner of the pad, there will be a running digital clock. It won't be hard to develop but it will be (a little?) more costly than the current pads. I'm hoping they pick the two lower corners so we minimally, if at all, have to raise our sighting point.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

smontanaro — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:43:56 GMT

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Muppet — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:24:10 GMT

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

pakman044 — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 01:32:43 GMT

No rule exists about moving the lap counting cards. That said, I believe that using the lap counter for displaying splits is a clear violation of both the spirit and letter of the rules regarding use of a pacing device. The swimmer should be disqualified. Certainly to use a turncard based lap counter (remember, that's not the only kind of lap counter that would appear to be permissible under the rules) to display splits in a meet (forget postal swims for a moment) would seem illegal. The appropriate rules for managing counters is not the pace-setting rule, but rather 102.10.6 (see up in the thread where I quoted the whole rule). You can verbally or visually call lengths (102.10.6A) in ascending or descending order (102.10.6D), but intermediate times if called must be done verbally (102.10.6B). However, to disqualify the swimmer in the pool for violating 102.10.6 would be highly excessive. Generally the referee or one of the officials is watching the counters to make sure that they stay in order. If irregular counting is observed, an official can inquire to make sure that the counter knows what they're doing (that's quite a stretch for some counters I've seen!), or to inform that the visual count must be in lengths and not something else. If after being told to cease and desist from irregular counting, and the counter refuses, then penalties may be considered (for example, prohibiting further counting, DQing the counter, some appropriate penalty from the referee for unsportsmanslike conduct for defying the instructions of a meet official ). Back to shaking the counting device around--nothing illegal about it (just make sure you hold it so the swimmer doesn't actually push off against it!). Remember folks, the whole business about counters is specifically authorized apart from the pace-setting rules. These are two seperate issues. You can certainly verbally call intermediate times aloud to the swimmer pursuant to the business of lap counting. You just can't do it visually. Patrick King

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:13:55 GMT

if counting for someone, could i flash the double orange every lap? ....of course wild shaking would also be included in my assist to get my swimmer moving faster.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

pakman044 — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:10:05 GMT

if counting for someone, could i flash the double orange every lap? ....of course wild shaking would also be included in my assist to get my swimmer moving faster. Well this is a postal swim, and certainly everyone doesn't do turn counting the way it's done in a meet (even though in theory, it's supposed to be done that way). I don't think anyone's going to send the USMS Secret Service after you for this. But who says you have to even use a turncard in the first place? The kickboard is perfectly valid (if you don't need to convey numerical information), and there's no prohibition against the counter gyrating the counting device either. Patrick King

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

pakman044 — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:46:31 GMT

A counter may verbally call split times. See USMS 102.10.6: 102.10.6 Counters A A swimmer in any individual event of 16 lengths or more, except the individual medley, may appoint one counter to call lengths or indicate lengths by visual sign. B Verbal counters shall be limited to one per swimmer and shall be stationed at the end of the course opposite the starting end. They may use watches and signal intermediate times to the swimmer. C If visual counters are used, they may be stationed at the end or either side of the pool beyond the halfway point toward the end of the course opposite the starting end. Visual counters may be lowered into the water at the end of the swimmer’s lane, provided that, in the opinion of the referee, they neither physically aid the swimmer or interfere with another competitor or present any safety hazard. D The count may be in ascending or descending order. E In the event of official or counter error, it is the responsibility of the swimmer to complete the prescribed distance. There's no requirement that counters be completely motionless with the counting device, so you could easily conclude as long as the counter does not interfere with the race, they're fine. I wouldn't really want to try the trick with changing the count on the turncard to indicate pace in an actual meet. It would certainly drive the referee and timers nuts (assuming everyone's paying attention to the count), plus you would probably be violating 102.10.6D. Not sure what the penalty of that would be, but I'm not sure you'd want to find out either. Of course, there's also no definition of what a counter must be (the rules are written in such a way that it doesn't have to be the expensive things with turncards), so I suppose you could rig up a system that would indicate pace and length in ascending/descending order. Patrick King

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:50:05 GMT

The FINA rules say: SW 10.15 No pace-making shall be permitted, nor may any device be used or plan adopted which has that effect. Which is not to say that this rule isn't widely ignored and/or that USMS does not follow this rule.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:04:39 GMT

I would say that the fact that it is illegal makes it an issue, but whatever. My post was primarily directed towards Blackbeard's comments about having heard that displaying splits on the lap counter is permitted. Were that permitted, it would seem that any sort of watch being used for pacing would also be permitted.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:18:35 GMT

So if that is permitted, then why the issue about wearing a pacing device on your wrist?

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:07:14 GMT

Geek, you misspelled bowel and while not specifically banned, it would be in bad taste to incorporate this in your race strategy.:mooning:

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Former Member — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:00:32 GMT

Are you talking about "shaking" the board? See it all the time in HS swimming.......

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Muppet — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:20:39 GMT

????In the Olympics for the Women’s 800 and Men’s 1500, the “inspector of turns” at the turning end of the pool shall record the number of laps completed by the swimmer in his lane and keep the swimmer informed of the remaining number of laps to be completed by displaying "lap cards". Semi-electronic equipment may be used, including under water display. Even the best of the best sometimes need help counting to 30.:fish2: Hmm, well I guess I stand corrected. I've never seen them used at that level at all... perhaps the TV coverage hasn't shown it... perhaps I should go to Omaha this year :fish2:

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Rob Copeland — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:11:11 GMT

There are no counting cards used in the olympics.????In the Olympics for the Women’s 800 and Men’s 1500, the “inspector of turns” at the turning end of the pool shall record the number of laps completed by the swimmer in his lane and keep the swimmer informed of the remaining number of laps to be completed by displaying "lap cards". Semi-electronic equipment may be used, including under water display. Even the best of the best sometimes need help counting to 30.:fish2:

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

aztimm — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:09:01 GMT

I'd say using the counting numbers for anything other than the intent (the lap#) is wrong. I'd hate for them to come out and say that you can't use a counter at all... When we did 400s the other day, I kept losing track, anything over a 200 and I kind of just zone out. I have made some agreements with counters in the past to move towards the left or right side of the lane, based on my pace (to speed/slow), and in the true essence even those are probably wrong.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Muppet — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 04:58:12 GMT

There are no counting cards used in the olympics... But those folks are used to doing 16 lengths or 30 lengths at length and with lots of repetitions. We mere mortals need some help with counting, especially since not all our meets have automatic timing. I can certainly understand why have counting cards.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Rob Copeland — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:59:23 GMT

There is no issue about “wearing a pacing device.” It is illegal to wear a pacing device. Now if you wanted to wear your lap counter, this would be an issue. In USMS rules as long as your counter is counting either up or down, there is no prohibition against any lap counter movement. FINA and other swimming organizations have other lap counting rules.

RE: Counting board pacing - illegal?

Muppet — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:13:57 GMT

No there are none. Most people shake the hell out of that thing near the end of someone's race to send a message to get the swimmer to swim faster... I have been told that it is permitted to "display splits" on the counting board, namely, your counter holds "13" in the water at each x25 of your swim to let you know you've been holding 1:13s for your 100s... granted, this gets a bit confusing for the counter, the swimmer and the timers, but its legal.