Kick speed with shoes on

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:08:11 GMT

Randy Reese, the current coach of Longhorn Aquatics, is a big proponent of kicking with shoes on. I believe it's described in his 2 DVDs, but I haven't personally seen them.

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:11:15 GMT

Chris....I threaten my college coach to this day with a lawsuit for how many times I almost drowned doing this stuff way back when! You want a REALLY good torture? Ask John and Ande about Eddie Reece's use of small "carts" that the swimmers kneeled on and used their hands to "pull" themselves along and up the ramps of UT's football stadium...you GOTTA love the 80's! :dedhorse: ... we called 'em "wheels" when we did them at Cal in the '80s, and we rolled thru the puke from the football players on the stadium ramps... :bitching:

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Jeff Commings — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:24:44 GMT

You want a REALLY good torture? Ask John and Ande about Eddie Reece's use of small "carts" that the swimmers kneeled on and used their hands to "pull" themselves along and up the ramps of UT's football stadium...you GOTTA love the 80's! :dedhorse: And the 90s! I remember how much my hands smelled like pigeon and bat poop after a long afternoon of hauling myself up those ramps. The real torture was having to climb a 20-foot rope after that without using your legs. Some time before xmas someone, it might have been Chris Stevenson, posted about a workout where they did a kick set with shoes on, reducing the flexibility of the ankle. He commented that his kicking speed was cut in half. I didn't get around to asking but have been wondering if that was literally true? This is true in my life every day ... without shoes. :(

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Paul Smith — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:02:27 GMT

Now Paul, you KNOW that some people hang on everything you say :bow: ...prepare for the inevitable lawsuits, once people start drowning... Chris....I threaten my college coach to this day with a lawsuit for how many times I almost drowned doing this stuff way back when! You want a REALLY good torture? Ask John and Ande about Eddie Reece's use of small "carts" that the swimmers kneeled on and used their hands to "pull" themselves along and up the ramps of UT's football stadium...you GOTTA love the 80's! :dedhorse:

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:41:46 GMT

Yes, quite and thanks for those ankle flexibility exercises Jonathan. I particularly like the third one. I do it everyday and can now hold that position for about 2 mins. Compare that to an agonizing few seconds when I first started. My ankles have responded remarkably quickly to this new routine. But truly, the results are remarkable. I have a new found power in my kick that was never there before. My kick was so weak that, quite frankly, it made no difference if my legs were tied together. I kid you not! Now I can actually feel the water on the odd occassion in my flutter kick and really quite powerfully in my butterfly and SDK. Syd Syd, That's great! I'm happy that this is working for you... As far as the SDK work, I've found it on my back to be easier as well... The fly takes more training, and it is a lot about the timing... After you have the flexibility, it's almost like you want to keep the feet closer to surface and push back from there...( a little tilt in the hips really helps with this) That's different than on your back, which is more like a scoop/push Keep working at it, you'll improve even more... My fly kick did eventually get better, but not the quick results like on the back from the ankle flexibility.

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:42:06 GMT

Thanks a lot for conducting that test Chris! It's very interesting to see it quantified. I hope you get a chance to do your test on the effect on swimming speed as well, that should say something about the contribution of kicking to swimming. It would also be interesting to see if the difference was less in a swimmer with poor ankle flexibility. I guess I'll have to add ankle stretching to my resolutions... Results from this morning: -- I used an old pair of tennis shoes. They are buoyant enough to float even when filled with water. I am pretty average size (5'10", size 9 1/2 feet). -- I did two 25s kick with a board, about 85% effort. Dophin: 13.2, flutter: 15.1. -- Put the shoes on and repeated: Dophin: 19.6, flutter: 21.4. So the shoes added slightly more than 6 seconds for each 25; the relative increase is somewhat greater for dophin kick (48%) than for flutter (42%). We had a test set today so I was too tired at the end of practice to do much experimenting. But I wanted to compare longer distances -- 50s at least -- and to compare swimming with/without shoes and with/without fists (I suppose mittens would be more comparable). But I was pretty well cooked by the end of practice. :drown: Syd, I'm glad increased flexibility is helping you; it makes sense, since it is critical in converting the "engine" of core and legs into forward propulsion. If possible, you want your feet to "whip" during the kick, much like fins, and the ankles should be flexible enough to do so. (My knees also hyperextend, which maybe helps on the upkick...but don't go messing with your knees!).

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:14:45 GMT

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:53:21 GMT

Syd, Yaaaa.... Isn't that a sweet relief of frustration...? I'm glad you've had similar results, and I wish you all the best in the water. Cheers, Yes, quite and thanks for those ankle flexibility exercises Jonathan. I particularly like the third one. I do it everyday and can now hold that position for about 2 mins. Compare that to an agonizing few seconds when I first started. My ankles have responded remarkably quickly to this new routine. But truly, the results are remarkable. I have a new found power in my kick that was never there before. My kick was so weak that, quite frankly, it made no difference if my legs were tied together. I kid you not! Now I can actually feel the water on the odd occassion in my flutter kick and really quite powerfully in my butterfly and SDK. Syd

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:46:26 GMT

This is very Old Hat, shoes in the pool. Our coach had us use them in the 40s. How much has changed other than minor tech changes an workout intesity.

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:11:50 GMT

I can quite believe this. Since I started doing ankle flexibility exercises about 6 weeks ago my SDK times have dropped significantly (more than two seconds for 25m). I am really excited about the results and practicing my SDK has now become something I really look forward to. It has also improved my flutter kick. Syd Syd, Yaaaa.... Isn't that a sweet relief of frustration...? I'm glad you've had similar results, and I wish you all the best in the water. Cheers,

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:08:19 GMT

Results from this morning: -- I used an old pair of tennis shoes. They are buoyant enough to float even when filled with water. I am pretty average size (5'10", size 9 1/2 feet). -- I did two 25s kick with a board, about 85% effort. Dophin: 13.2, flutter: 15.1. -- Put the shoes on and repeated: Dophin: 19.6, flutter: 21.4. So the shoes added slightly more than 6 seconds for each 25; the relative increase is somewhat greater for dophin kick (48%) than for flutter (42%). Thank you Chris, for these numbers. This really does exemplify the importance of ankle flexibility in swimming/kicking. I have thought it through a little more, and the increased range of motion in the ankles would be of benefit simply from the reduction of drag through-out the kicking motion, as well as increased propulsive surface area, literally changing the body position through the water. It's good to have some numbers to validate this viewpoint. Happy swimming,

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Paul Smith — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:55:11 GMT

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:30:07 GMT

I've never tried kicking with shoes on, but it seems like the added weight of the shoes would be more of a factor than the reduction in ankle flexibility. Also, if ankle flexibility is such a big factor, why would you do something (i.e., kick with shoes) to decrease this? To me it seems sort of like intentionally dropping your elbow on the catch. Possibly interesting as an experiment, but not very valuable as a training tool. Well, the shoes float. They soak up water too, so I suppose one is "dragging" more water. But the main reason it decreases speed is that you just don't get much "push" from your feet when you kick. I don't feel them dragging my feet down or anything. One of the USS coaches uses it for his group, probably about once a week. Since I swim with them every so often, he told me to bring an old pair of sneaks to practice. I'm not entirely sure of the benefits -- maybe to focus more on your hips/legs when you kick? -- but I'm willing to give it a try every so often. I don't see it as a primary training tool. I think vertical kicking is probably more beneficial for training, if one is interested in doing something a little different. (When you swim for decades, you gotta keep from getting bored!) Or maybe I just like being contrary -- I never use fins, which many love!

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

knelson — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:03:58 GMT

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:05:05 GMT

Results from this morning: -- I used an old pair of tennis shoes. They are buoyant enough to float even when filled with water. I am pretty average size (5'10", size 9 1/2 feet). -- I did two 25s kick with a board, about 85% effort. Dophin: 13.2, flutter: 15.1. -- Put the shoes on and repeated: Dophin: 19.6, flutter: 21.4. So the shoes added slightly more than 6 seconds for each 25; the relative increase is somewhat greater for dophin kick (48%) than for flutter (42%). We had a test set today so I was too tired at the end of practice to do much experimenting. But I wanted to compare longer distances -- 50s at least -- and to compare swimming with/without shoes and with/without fists (I suppose mittens would be more comparable). But I was pretty well cooked by the end of practice. :drown: Syd, I'm glad increased flexibility is helping you; it makes sense, since it is critical in converting the "engine" of core and legs into forward propulsion. If possible, you want your feet to "whip" during the kick, much like fins, and the ankles should be flexible enough to do so. (My knees also hyperextend, which maybe helps on the upkick...but don't go messing with your knees!).

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:40:19 GMT

If you really want to make it fun put your sneakers on with a 10lb weight belt and do vertical kicking intervals.... Or take a kick board and rotate it so that instead of being flush on top of the water its in the position of a wall half submerged and do 25 power kicks on...with sneakers....and with a weight belt. Now Paul, you KNOW that some people hang on everything you say :bow: ...prepare for the inevitable lawsuits, once people start drowning...

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Former Member — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:31:17 GMT

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Chris Stevenson — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 07:17:38 GMT

Some time before xmas someone, it might have been Chris Stevenson, posted about a workout where they did a kick set with shoes on, reducing the flexibility of the ankle. He commented that his kicking speed was cut in half. I didn't get around to asking but have been wondering if that was literally true? If the difference is that large perhaps I'll start doing ankle stretches when we are assigned kick sets... :D Yes, though I don't remember the specifics any more. I do remember that underwater SDK was effectively impossible (at least, I didn't feel I was going anywhere). After practice tomorrow morning I'll experiment a bit, do some timed 25s of dolphin and flutter kick, with and without shoes to quantify the effect.

RE: Kick speed with shoes on

Muppet — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 04:19:05 GMT

I haven't done that kind of kicking in ~15 years... I think I may bring a pair of shoes to practice tomorrow and run an experiment. If I do, I'll let you know!