Speed

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:49:54 GMT

Whoa i'm confused...when i say it takes me 21 strokes i mean counting each arm as one stroke--is that correct? ... I believe even if i sprint, it still takes me almost 45 seconds to do 50 meters. My stroke feels good, in that i feel like i could do it forever and not get tired...but it hasn't translated into faster speed. i don't know that there is a right or wrong way to count... it is always best to clarify in text though. in places like this forum, to be on the safe side, i always specify 'pulls' ("each arm as one stroke") or 'complete stroke cycles' (each time the same arm returns to the same position). this clarification is only necessary with back crawl and front crawl ('free'), as fly and *** have simultaneous arm movements. since i always start to swim in a streamlined position, arms in front, i count each time my arm(s) return to that position, at the end of the recovery. for back and 'free'... if i'm counting each pull i count every time either the L or R arm enters the water. if i'm counting complete stroke cycles (which is easier), i count each time the arm i took the first pull with enters the water at the end of the recovery... and with this method, if i finish the pool length with the other arm i count it as a half stroke. i hope this helps to end your confusion. have you seen the other thread going now on Stroke Count Estimation? it is fairly technical, but it deals with the same subject in a different way. and a few important points are brought up... which could very well be what's holding you back speed-wise (but it is difficult to say for sure, without actually seeing you swim). the basic concept is that you do not 'push' the water behind you as you swim, but rather you 'pull' yourself through the water. the idea is that on the 'catch' (the moment at the end of the recovery, after the entry, when the hand 'grabs' the water) you "anchor" your hand in the water, and pull your body forward. a good analogy i've heard is that it is more like climbing up a ladder, or pulling yourself through the water by pulling on a rope. ideally, as the theory goes, your hand should exit the water in the same spot it enters. this can be seen rather easily from the side of the pool while swimming next to a lane line. the viewer can fix their eye on the lane line at the spot where your hand enters the water, then compare that to the spot where your hand exits the water. the further "behind" that your hand exits,the more 'slippage' (and less anchoring) your hand is generating. a video or a swim buddy can help you with this. does this make any sense to you? if you search this forum on various terms like slippage, sculling, stroke count, etc. you can frequently find some good information (but it does take time). here is one thread on hand positioning you may find useful: open/closed handed freestyle?? elusive speed... i've seen many posts here citing swimming as being a superior sport because it relies so much on technique. i can't argue against that point. you can be the strongest, best conditioned person on Earth, but if you don't have the technique, you simply won't be the fastest swimmer. try relaxing into your stroke... i know that is when i feel fastest. relaxation in the recovery is really critical. but learning to only activate the muscles you need to go forward, and relaxing the rest, is probably the most important thing to learn. studying Yoga can help a lot in better understanding this concept. have fun!

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:41:47 GMT

1. Get stronger - Solid strength training program 2. Sprint in practice - 12.5's and 25's all out but relaxed, no "muscle" 3. Don't drop your elbows at any part during the stroke (finger tips always below elbows) Above all else, if you want to swim fast, you must practice swimming fast. Good luck!

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:35:32 GMT

Thanks everyone. The problem is, i don't swim faster when i TRY to swim faster. it's actually when i relax and fall into a rhythm that i actually swim fastest... Maybe that's your answer. Wait until you get into that relaxed rhythm and do just three or four strokes in the middle of a length that are a faster cadence than the rest, then get straight back into the rhythm. Aim at staying just as relaxed in those few strokes as for the rest of the length. Work at this for a few weeks, then add a few more of the faster ones, until eventually you can do the entire length at this cadence, then aim at putting two of these lengths together, etc. I know where you're coming from, I seem to have about 4 fast twitch muscles in my whole body. I've been working at the relaxed-but-faster thing and so far am up to 25 meters of it. Still not "fast", but at least "faster".

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:09:02 GMT

Thanks everyone. The problem is, i don't swim faster when i TRY to swim faster. it's actually when i relax and fall into a rhythm that i actually swim fastest. i can't swim a 50 fast, even if i sprint. my fastest miles are usually mile 2 or 3 or even 4 of a long swim. my slowest is probably the first mile. i find it counterproductive to try swimming harder. it doesn't make me any faster.

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:46:58 GMT

Swim lots of 50s, 100s and 200s and get your times down to get your race pace down.

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:51:50 GMT

In a 25 meter pool it takes me about 21 strokes...and i'm 5'7" not short! ... I get across a 25 yard pool in 13 strokes. Your stroke count seems rather high to me... i'm guessing she means 21 pulls, or 10.5 complete stroke cycles... which is not bad... but that could probably be improved by at least 2 pulls less. your lowest stroke count does not have to be your race pace, but it is a good method for improving your efficiency and general technique. and i agree, if you can swim 9mi, you must have fairly decent conditioning. and yes, you probably do need to focus on improving technique. Surfergirl... when you 'practice' do you just jump in and swim non-stop for the whole time? or do you do some shorter sets too and rest briefly in-between? if you swim non-stop you may find it better to break things up from time-to-time. do some 500's, or 100's, or even 50's. i find that the shorter distances allow me to focus better on technique, since i'm not quite so focused on fighting off fatigue. i saw a recent post here citing the necessity of a clock in training for competition... i can't argue against that. i don't use a clock, just rest till i catch my breath between sets, but i'm not much of a competitor (but i do like going to meets). you don't need a PhD in Exercise Physiology to see the advantage of 'timed intervals' however. i've learned best by paying attention to how i move through the water, trying different things, looking for that 'sweet spot' where everything clicks and i feel like i'm just gliding through the whole stroke. i read up on stroke technique (see the links on my earlier post here for a good starting point), watch videos (if you can download them and view them on something QuickTime where you can step through them one frame at a time that is ideal), and i lurk on this forum (and occasionally post). i'm 6'2 190# and can do one SCY length (short course yards, or 25 yards) in about 8 strokes (16 pulls). when i push off the wall i usually start my 'breakout' stroke around the backstroke flags. (#12 "The fastest you ever travel is when you dive off the block and push off the wall.") i believe bilateral breathing (being able to breathe effortlessly on either side) is absolutely essential to having a well balanced, efficient stroke. ... enjoy!

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:49:18 GMT

If you can swim 9 miles, I'm guessing your conditioning is pretty good. My hunch is that you have a flaw in your technique. Not all swim instructors are good. My advice would be to find a reputable one and work with them until your stroke is perfect. I get across a 25 yard pool in 13 strokes. Your stroke count seems rather high to me, which further suggests a problem with your technique. Good luck!

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:17:10 GMT

Like most athletic skills, swimming requires you to "set-up" your stroke. Every competitive stoke can be separated into four quadrants. The first is when you begin your stroke or set-up your hands to get into an effective propulsive position, the second is the power quadrant (power phase) where the hands produce the most propulsion, the third quadrant is when the hand finishes the pull and begins to exit, the fourth quadrant is the recovery or movement and return to the entry and set-up. Your speed is a direct result of how you set-up your stroke. Although there are many elements that contribute to swimming speed (streamlining, timing, endurance, body type, strength, etc.,), how you position your hands at the beginning of your stroke is crucial to the end result. Every competitive stroke requires the hand to create drag (pushing) and lift (sculling) forces. An Early Vertical Forearm (EVF) position allows swimmers to create drag forces vital to swimming speed. A nice analogy to understand drag forces (drag coefficient) is by using tires and traction. A wheel that spins too fast without drag merely creates smoke (much like a swimmers hand that pushes water backward too quickly and creates slipping) and it's not until the wheel grips the pavement do you see forward speed. It's a bit more complicated than that but I think you get the picture. When the forearm is straight (horizontal) it props-up the body and as it moves more vertical it produces more speed (like a paddle wheel). Lift forces or the movement of the forearm toward and away from the mid-line of the body produce another propulsive force that help maintain a more effective drag coefficient. Sculling or lift forces are not the primary propulsive mechanism in swimming but they contribute an important synergy to speed. The "Science of Swimming" by Dr. James Councilman shows the importance of both drag and lift forces. If you want to get faster, work of developing the muscles that hold your forearm into an EVF (not pulling exercises) and when you swim try to develop a better catch (EVF). Good luck. Coach T.

RE: Speed

Former Member — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:16:24 GMT

Whoa i'm confused...when i say it takes me 21 strokes i mean counting each arm as one stroke--is that correct? Yes, while I have never been an athletic person, i am in very good shape so i know i should be able to swim faster. In addition to swimming and surfing, i run and do a little bit of weight lifting. Height: 5'7" Weight: 150 Age: 29 Generally i just jump in and swim--how far depends greatly on the water temperature--i'll swim anywhere from half a mile to 9 miles. When i was correcting my technique, i did do a little speed work in the pool...i'd do 50s or 100s or 400s and try to do them fast. I believe even if i sprint, it still takes me almost 45 seconds to do 50 meters. My stroke feels good, in that i feel like i could do it forever and not get tired...but it hasn't translated into faster speed.

RE: Speed

Former Member — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:28:01 GMT

In a 25 meter pool it takes me about 21 strokes...and i'm 5'7" not short!

RE: Speed

Former Member — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:03:14 GMT

...I like the new stroke a lot but it hasn't really increased my speed! What is going on?.... i say do what feels the most comfortable. you are already getting coaching however, so you may want to go for more of that, or find another coach (has every teacher you've ever had been your favorite teacher?). i agree that improving the number of strokes you take per distance will likely improve your speed... ESPECIALLY on the long distance swims. my "Glide" post discusses this topic, and provides some handy links. the associated thread for that post may be of interest to you also. maybe you need to put in more effort... but usually improvements in technique will provide better speed with the same effort. a detailed review and analysis of your stroke by a qualified individual (like a good coach) should get you on the right track here. i totally relate to the buzz-kill of being repeatedly being beaten by the 'old guys'.... sometimes it is better to just compare your times and look for a personal best (PB). Oh Yeah... and don't forget to Have Fun! ...

RE: Speed

ande — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:58:59 GMT

breathing every 2 or 3 is a distraction and isn't the real issue to help you swim faster you need to breath on long swims more is better a 33 min mile is pretty pokey a mile is 1,760 yards so you're moving at 1.125 yards a second you cover 100 yards every 112.5 seconds or you average 1:52.5 seconds a 100 the entire issue is about improving the pace you can sustain during a race right now you hold 1:52.5 per 100 yards I bet there's several significant technique items you need to correct with swimming there's technique, body, (shape and conditioning) mental aspects and equipment. swim faster faster covers many areas www.usms.org/.../showthread.php I need to see what you're doing to help you correct it post vid on youtube improve your pace training harder more often will help improving technique will help using better equipment will help make it a priority and you will see improvements plus you left out a lot of details like age height weight strength previous training current training (x / wk, distance, with a coach with a team or alone) how fast can you swim 100 fast? Ande I can't seem to improve my speed. I basically taught myself to swim as an adult, with a few tips here and there from lifeguards who would see me swimming. My stroke got decent enough that I could swim 9 miles in open water. But my speed was and is bad...I swim a 33-35 minute mile, both in the pool and in open water. So this summer, I went to coach here in San Diego who has coached a lot of channel swimmers and he totally changed my stroke over the course of a few sessions. He said I should definitely be able to swim a sub-30 minute mile. Now, I like the new stroke a lot but it hasn't really increased my speed! What is going on? My coach suggested that I breathe every two strokes because he said oxygen is a limitation, but I kind of rejected that--i feel a lot more balanced if i breathe on both sides. Should I listen to him if i want to get faster? If my stroke is good, does that mean i am just slow because i'm not working hard enough? Should I go for more sessions with the coach? I'm not trying to win races or anything, but it just seems odd that the old guys more than twice my age are swimming faster than me!

RE: Speed

rtodd — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:35:06 GMT

You should know your distance per stroke. Without seeing you swim, I think it is the single biggest thing that will tell us something. How many strokes to get across the pool?