optimal split differential between 50s in 100

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

jim thornton — Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:22:26 GMT

In September, in one of our little local meets, I swam the 100 SCY in 54.53. Alas the splits aren't posted, but I am almost certain I went out fast and died, with the differential being well over two seconds (maybe even 3). A week ago, I tried it again with an intention of going out slower, taking the third length smooth, then sprinting all out. This was a much less agonizing proposition, I must say, and my time did go down slightly. Splits this time: 54.21 26.17 28.04 (differential 1.87) For what it's worth, just telling myself to relax slightly kept my arms from prematurely tightening up. A friend also told me an interesting strategy for the 500, which I tried at the same meet. 1st 50--just a tiny bit faster than comfort zone (ftcz) next 100--a little slower than comfort zone (stcz) next 50--ftcz next 150--stcz next 50--ftcz next 50--stcz final 50--sprint! Maybe it was just the mental distraction of trying to remember all this, but it also worked in helping lower my time from a 5:42 at the September meet to a 5:37 at this one. Now, perhaps I should simply concentrate in getting into shape...

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Allen Stark — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 12:34:39 GMT

Leslie asked about other strokes.100 BR should be about 3-3.5 for SCY,4 for LCM.I like to go out 1 sec slower than my best 50 in BR.(Sorry to hijack this to BR,but thats what I know.:banana::banana:)

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:34:23 GMT

First 50...one second off your all out time. Second 50...take that time and add 2 seconds. The four second differential appears to be consistent between the average bear and the elite swimmers. I have a quirky formula which has proven to be accurate in guessing at one's 100 time...take the best 50 time (x2)...plus 4 seconds. It usually comes with half a second of the 100 time.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:08:54 GMT

Going way be to when I was little (we're talking no older than 14ish), my coach would always give our splits at meets. Our goal was to make them as close as possible or within a second or 2. Sometimes, mine would be a difference of like 4 seconds. He would say "It looked like you were dragging Yamahas behind you! You know, those big pianos!" Funny how the piano sayings seem universal with some other coaches, according to our stories... Or, in things like ***/fly, if we pulled ourselves way up out of the water on the turns to get some extra air "you looked like Godzilla!". Needless to say, going back to topic, your splits should be pretty close. Obviously, that first 50 will ALWAYS be the fastest, espcially with the start, but your other 50's shouldn't be that far. In distance, you should be holding fairly steady 50 to 50 with little fluctuation. Then there's the 200, the worst distance/sprint known to man. It's in a category of it's own. I hated it with a passion. Talk about dragging Yamahas. That same coach told me to "take it out quick the first 50, cruise that middle 100, then bring it home the final 50. Don't save any for the dance." He had a lot of sayings...

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:47:34 GMT

Going back 45 years or more I always was told/coached that the rule of 2 applied if you were in good shape.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:18:00 GMT

Although I have always been more of a 50 than a 100 swimmer, from a psychological point of view it always felt better to come from behind and (figuratively speaking) run someone down than to be leading and desperately try to hang on...

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:38:39 GMT

Hey SS, where'd you get the splits from? I forgot to write mine down :cry: Paul Searched the results database section on USMS.org and it's also posted on a PDF

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:13:43 GMT

Here's a second's worth of progress in 6 months... Splits for 100 Free SCY April 07 34.79, 34.57 = 1:09.36 October 07 30.53, 37.66 = 1:08.19 Ummm far from optimal! This is what happened when I did it Kirk's way (not his at his suggestion...I just did it). I also forgot to breathe on the first 25. I was looking for a 1:05 or less but it was over by the time I got to the first turn. I know I told a few of you about this before but I only got the splits yesterday...enjoy! "Death by Piano" :rofl:

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Rob Copeland — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:58:01 GMT

IUsually this means you'll be at least a couple tenths off your best 50. One more stat from 2007 NCAA's. The average 50 time was 19.76, almost a full second slower then the first 50 split in the 100 (20.72).

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

knelson — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:30:46 GMT

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

ande — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:17:39 GMT

ideal is 1.5 - 2.0 what is the optimal differential between the first and second 50 on a 100 yard short course freestyle? The first 50 benefits from the dive and the relative freshness of the swimmer; the second 50 requires two turns and contending with lactate and fatigue. Is it better to go all out and try to hold on, or save a little for the end? Say you can swim an all-out 50 by itself at 25 seconds. How would you ideally swim the 100? Example: 25.5 then 28.5 for 3 second differential and a 54.0 or 26.0 and 28 for a 2 second differential and a 54. Which method do you think is best?

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:51:53 GMT

I really think you should go out as fast as you possibly can. Usually this means you'll be at least a couple tenths off your best 50 (which makes sense because you're slower touching to your feet rather than your hands). Then just try to hold on for the second 50. That said, I've never split a 100 like that in my life, but I still think it's the way to go for the fastest possible time. If you can pull it off you'll have an incredible time. If not, you could die like a dog on that second 50, but at least you went for it and maybe it will inspire you to train harder and actually be able to do it next time. I think this is bad advice. In the first 25 seconds of all out swimming you will exhaust your anerobic capacity. Lactic acid will quickly develop and you will fade quickly. Your splits will be too far apart and your time will be worse than if you had swum the race correctly. I don't have the monster book Swimming Fastest with me but it offers race guidance. I think it suggests the 1st 50 is about 1 second above your best 50. It aims for the 2nd 50 about 2 secs above the first 50. That is the way Roland Schoeman did it in Athens and it seems to be his preferred way of approaching the 100m. He shares the world record for the 100m free SCM with Ian Crocker (46.25). He also has the world record for the 50m free SCM (20.98) and the 50m fly LCM (22.96). Some may argue that it was exactly this approach that cost him the gold in Athens. Watch it here: www.youtube.com/watch He goes out in a blisteringly fast 22.60 (this is less than a second faster than his best all out 50 - I think he went a 21.74 once but I just can't find it now) and comes back in 25.63 for a total time of 48.23. Only 6 hundredths of a second off Van Hoogenbrand! His split difference is 3.03. Imagine if he could get that second 50 to within 2.5 seconds of the first....that would be under world record pace. You can see the wheels starting to fall off in the last 25m and Van Hoogenbrand gains steadily on him. Now perhaps if he had gone out in a 22.90 it could have made all the difference.... Syd

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:45:03 GMT

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

knelson — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:41:34 GMT

I think the reality is almost everyone's going to hold back a little on the first 50, that's why you need to go in with the mentality that you're going to go out as fast as you can. I do agree with Rob that your training and swimming strengths are a factor. Unless you're in great shape taking out the first 50 within a second of your PB is going to take its toll on the second. However, I think if you are in great shape and want the fastest possible 100 free this is what you need to do.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:29:05 GMT

So there was actually an error in the formula as you originally stated it. It's actually twice your fastest 50 times plus four seconds, not three. I was waiting for the hole poking. From an engineer no less! :doh: One second off of best 50...then 2 more seconds over that time...is four! I guess that's where the .50 fudge factor came about. "It's actually twice your fastest 50 times plus four seconds, not three." Thanks kirk. :)

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

The Fortress — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:05:45 GMT

One final thought-question: a friend from yesteryear gave me a race strategy that seemed to work pretty well for the 100 when you aren't in peak shape. It was this: Go out the first 50 as fast as you can while staying smooth--no thrashing The third length, concentrate on stretching out your stroke till you reach the far flags. At this point, begin a dead sprint. Do the turn as fast as possible and give it all you have left on the final length. This sometimes works for me because concentrating on smoothness the first 50 keeps you fast but not dead all out fast; then you have the psychic rest of the third length just trying to keep your stroke long and fluid. Then the true miserable hog-wimpering death march only lasts 25 yards, and we should be able to endure that, right, no matter how wimpy and--in Leslie's words--ouchee-avoidant we may be. But, having said this, I have never done my best times using this strategy. Anybody else have a solution? This is similar to how I swam a recent 100 back LC and 100 fly SCY. Seemed to work pretty well for me. I was happy with the times. I might have done a tad more "building" on the third length. But that, in a nutshell, is essentially how I swim 100s right now on my limited yardage. No way can I go "all out" on the first 50. That piano is freakin scarey. It hurts like hell anyway, but no need for a hideous piano IMHO.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:57:14 GMT

So maybe it would help if I did some 100 frees in practice or meets? :joker: Does your 3 second theory hold for the strokes too or just for the 100 free? Must be a higher differential for strokes. Plus, does the 3 second differential for the 100 free hold for every age group? To swim a strong hundred...you do need a strong engine. The 50 might be one of the few events where you can escape the guillotine of lactic acid that drops down on most people around 30 or more seconds into a strong effort. When you think about it...the 100 is an endurance sprint. The last lap is where your homework can pay-off. I think you could still do your sprints...just put 4 of them together at a time. That kind of training is grueling. Keeping yourself on a solid diet of tight intervals combined with the speed work is a great recipe. Some masters do very very well with as little as 2500 to 3000 yards a session. It all depends on how hard the work load is. And yes that formula works great for any stroke ...any age...Did it work for you? I've tried it for the Cesar Cielo going sub 19 for the 50... 18.69 plus 1 = 19.69 19.69 plus 2 = 21.69 19.69 plus 21.69 = 41.38 (with a.50 margin) That works. He went 41.17. And for the average Joe...... 27.50 plus 1 = 28.50 28.50 plus 2 = 30.50 28.50 plus 30.50 = 59.0 (with a.50 margin) 59 to 59.50 is the outcome. Our age group kids who try to break "the minute" always seem to do it once they nail a 50free at 27 seconds.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

The Fortress — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:52:39 GMT

Ah, the one's posted on the Patriot Masters site did not have splits. Official results and splits are up now. They were unofficial before. I am a whimpy sprinter, scared to die like a dog. So my one and only 100 free, my splits were 1.3 seconds apart and I went out much slower than my 50 free PR. So I'm going to attempt to go out somewhat faster next time. But I won't try this tactic for a 100 fly. Too ouchie.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

jim thornton — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:48:57 GMT

Thanks to everyone for excellent advice. I am swimming in a little meet on Sunday and may try an experiment: go out slightly slower on the first 50 than I did at the last little meet we had, and see if I can postpone death long enough to recoup the difference. It's funny because the same basic idea sort of applies to the 200, I think, and I did almost identical best times trying the two different stategies. One time I went out in 57 and came back in 58, for a 1:55.+ The other time I went out in 55 and came back in 1:00, for a 1:55.+ The second race was much more agonizing than the first, though neither one was much of a picnic. Obviously, if the race is a 50, you can't exactly go out a little slow on the first 25 to save up for the second! One final thought-question: a friend from yesteryear gave me a race strategy that seemed to work pretty well for the 100 when you aren't in peak shape. It was this: Go out the first 50 as fast as you can while staying smooth--no thrashing The third length, concentrate on stretching out your stroke till you reach the far flags. At this point, begin a dead sprint. Do the turn as fast as possible and give it all you have left on the final length. This sometimes works for me because concentrating on smoothness the first 50 keeps you fast but not dead all out fast; then you have the psychic rest of the third length just trying to keep your stroke long and fluid. Then the true miserable hog-wimpering death march only lasts 25 yards, and we should be able to endure that, right, no matter how wimpy and--in Leslie's words--ouchee-avoidant we may be. But, having said this, I have never done my best times using this strategy. Anybody else have a solution?

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:42:32 GMT

Instead of talking about the number of seconds for the differential, why doesn't it make more sense to calculate the percentile differential based on your best time? The NCAA men (all in incredible condition and way beyond what masters might hope hope to achieve) average a 4.85 percent differential using Rob's figures from last year's NCAA's (2.11 seconds divided by 43.5 seconds). So if your best 100 is one minute, and you were in fantastic shape, the differential should be more like 2.91 seconds. 3.4 seconds if your 100 is a 1:10 Personally, I'm more of a 50 swimmer. When going all out (due to the pain, once or twice a year is sufficient) I try to be within 1 second of my 50 time at that meet and usually average in the high 2 seconds differential (2.7 seconds when I went a 49.1 a couple of years ago). That year my training was really focused on tolerating those lactates. You've got to pay the price for a fast 100. Rich

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

pwolf66 — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:41:05 GMT

Ah, the one's posted on the Patriot Masters site did not have splits.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

pwolf66 — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:37:11 GMT

SS: where'd you get the splits from? I forgot to write mine down :cry: Fort: Dying like a dog huh? Yep, I'm still having that problem. We'll see if I can keep the splits within a second or 2 at Zones. Shooting for 30,32 at Zones and I have been trying to train 100s that way. Paul

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

The Fortress — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:28:46 GMT

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Former Member — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:21:33 GMT

Hi Paul, Having seen that your swimming career is newly resurrected...I understand where you're coming from. In my first year back...at age 41...the piano drop on the 3rd turn was inevitable. It was like swimming through concrete. Four years later, the stamina has returned...and I can nearly even split the 100. In due time your dead squirrel feeling will be a distant memory... Until you start doing 200's. :D "It doesn't work for me either. Way off. I'm thinking it's not accurate for yardage slacker masters? Could just be a real underachiever, I guess." At some point the body adjusts to whatever work load you're giving it. Training at a harder interval for a longer duration is tough. But everyone can learn how to adjust as long as the change isn't radical. Sooner or later the interval which seemed impossible gets easier to swim through. That's when the times start dropping. In a way a more challenging workout forces you to swim with economy and effectiveness. ...tighter streamlines, better body posture...more dolphin kicks...Anything that will assist you in picking up a second here and there will have a positive effect.

RE: optimal split differential between 50s in 100

Glenn — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:05:32 GMT

Jim, If I am correct, you are more of a distance guy. As others have said, each person is different. Many people have told me to swim the 100 all out. It doesn't work for me. My best 100 swim in several years was at Federal Way. 1st 50 - 27.12 2nd 50 - 27.19 I held back on the first 50 and had enough left to not have to contend with the piano! It worked for me.:groovy: