Underwater 25 Meter?

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:47:13 GMT

Syd: there is no solution. You can train your mind to function with an elevated pC02, but as long as you are swimming above a certain effort, you will produce in excess of what you can get rid off. The lack of strengh or the swimming getting slower in a fast 100 or even a 50 is a factor of muscle fatigue, which involves many systems, including the oxygen or lack off. But the pure feeling of being out of breath is always related to your C02 and will only be alleviated by producing less or breathing more. When not in exercise, just pure diving or breath holding when you breathe you immediately feel better...when finishing a fast swim (which purists might say was anaerobic, because you run out of oxygen in the cellular level) you take more than one breath to get into normal breathing because you are eliminating an accumulation of C02 from exercise plus lack of breathing. When you run fast you also take sometime to get back into normal breathing, due to same factors (although the other factors such as oxygen depletion and so forth are also participating in this event). Jim, excessive hiperventilating can produce light headness or dots. A common finding in panic attacks. This is due to low C02 content in blood (don't know why ). But lack of oxygen is also found in light headness. Also a small disturbance in your balance system (inner ear and so forth) might cause nausea/or light headness, irrespective of ventilation. This is an extensive and interesting subject matter. Most people think being out of breath is being out of oxygen. But then, most people think the tanks used in Scuba Diving have pure oxygen. Costeau discovered the hard way (passing out) that pure oxygen is detrimental in diving and acts funny when person is under pressure. Last bit of useless information: american space capsules have a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen to make the 20-80 balance; the russians have 100% oxygen with one third atmospheric pressure to make the capsule safe. billy fanstone

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:16:29 GMT

Just to second what Jim said: excellent information Billy. I have learned a lot from your posts. Admittedly, I have to read over them at least three times before I start to understand but then I am not the technical sort. :p so it is not so much a function of not breathing, as to producing excess C02 from energy systems and not getting rid of it fast enough...in other words, there are two problems when swimming, (underwater or not), the C02 produced by exercise and the C02 not eliminated by breathing. Which begs the question: how should we be breathing so that we can eliminate this co2 buildup? Or is it inevitable and, therefore, unavoidable? Syd

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:32:54 GMT

Jim, thanks for the "superb". I am not yet satisfied with what I've got. But I keep on studying and researching the internet till I find the one explanation for the "out of breath" sensation when doing a flip turn, or when going faster in free, or when going any speed in fly. 1- I was at around 5,000 meters (16,500 feet) altitude in Nepal and put on a oxymeter and it read 86, and varied between 83 and 89 for the group. We were relaxing in the lounge of the Everest View Hotel. I had on my Polar all the time I was trekking and it read about 20 beats higher than I would normally expect, even at rest. But, after a week, I almost got a normal reading at rest, meaning I was physiologically aclimating, although would not yet having red blood increase. The pulse oxymeter measures blood saturation in your body, not lung, so it would take a long time for you to go blue from not breathing or swimming under water. If for instance you were on 100% oxygen and stopped breathing it would take longer to desaturate than when breathing room air (one of the reasons I never give oxygen to my patients on spontaneous respiration, because I want the oxymeter to show me a decrease in breathing movements, which would take longer if I fed them pure oxygen). But that is a matter for another thread or another forum, I was just curious about your using the oxymeter while climbing. That 72% was when exerting yourself, right? 2-Increased C02 would be harmful in longer time frame, not while holding breath. If one is weaning a patient of a respirator it is common to have longer intervals between respiratory movements to try and get their C02 up to make them breathe on their own. 3-So if buildup of C02 is not harmful, what is the problem? The problem is when one gets so good at holding their breath (i.e. withstanding higher pC02 in blood), eventually one does not breathe enough for enough oxygen to feed the brain (which is sensitive to less oxygen). In the worse scenario, a diver, or an apnea guy, or a guy going deep after fish, would hold his breath for so long (because he is mentally trained for that) as to get to a point where lack of oxygen to the brain would cause a "passing out", or if diving deep, when coming up, the different pressures in the water would change the partial pressures of the gases in the blood and also cause a lack of oxygen to the brain. In a swimming pool it can happen but is less likely. Notice after a strong swim, or a I.M., or whatever gets you, how breathless you are...that is because of excess buildup of C02 AND sometimes lack of oxygen. Also, when you go so fast or so strong as to feel like throwing up, that is also a function of lack of oxygen in brain, plus acidosis in blood. It happens while running or other exercise, so it is not so much a function of not breathing, as to producing excess C02 from energy systems and not getting rid of it fast enough...in other words, there are two problems when swimming, (underwater or not), the C02 produced by exercise and the C02 not eliminated by breathing. 4- Lastly: the 166 meters underwater in a pool, or the 500 feet deep dive and other stuff you read about are done by super trained athletes, they have no problem with their C02, they have to monitor or take care of their oxygen consumption and so forth. In our case diving shallow in a pool, or swimming, it would be rare to pass out, and yet, it can happen. My problem? not taking one stroke more after the flip, but breathing immediately, making my coach mad, making me wonder, where is my mental fortitude. Take care, billy fanstone

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:27:42 GMT

ok, back from swimming i tried freestyle swimming, with pushoff from the wall, and i did 25meters with 29-30 hand pulls (left arm1, right arm 2...). Breaststroke, i swam with about 15 full cycles from the wallstart to the end (dive, pull up, dive, push with legs, pull up..dive...). with underwater swimming, still no visible progress. with just a random breathtake i can do about 12,5 meters..then need for o2 kicks in.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

jim thornton — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:28:11 GMT

billy--i was indeed exercising quite vigorously at the time of my 72 percent saturation, and it didn't stay down that low very long. as soon as i would rest a little, it would bounce back in the 80s. you might find the article i am writing on this climb--a neophytes intro to the sport of peak-bagging--sort of interesting. i spent the summer pre-acclimating in a normobaric, hypoxic tent--an altogether miserable experience, given how hot and humid it was in pittsburgh last summer, but one which nevertheless did seem to prepare me pretty well for elbert (14,443 feet). lots of elite athletes use these tents now to enhance sea level performance, and WADA so far, at least, allows their use. but the evidence they do any good for athletic performance at low altitudes (as opposed to preacclimatizing you to high altitudes) is mixed at best. if anything, i feel i can breathe better in the pool now than when i was presumably EPO and blood cell enriched from the tent. I wonder if it just made my blood sludgier? As for those light sensations, I get those sometimes too. I don't think they have anything to do with oxygen or CO2, but may be like super floaters or possibly some kind of blood pressure effect on the rods and cones of the eye.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:27:37 GMT

I did not look the pressure thing up now on the google, might later, but as I remember, the russians dominated the solid fuel technology, the landing on hard surface technology and the bringing the onboard pressure to one third one atmosphere (abou 300 milibars) to make the partial pressure okay. The americans use inert gases (nitrogen and others) plus oxygen to somewhere around 20 to 30% oxygen, which is ideal. Here's everything you could possibly want to know about the subject lsda.jsc.nasa.gov/.../Ch37.htm

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:20:47 GMT

about "little black dots", i have expirienced about the same thing (not underwater though), but they werent dots, they were like little falling stars in my field of view, one time i expirienced this, doing ab training, hanging upside down., did about 6-7, then little stars appeared, and i stopped, i didnt want to break my neck during the fall...

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:42:32 GMT

The tent would be for sleeping, costs about 10,000. Like sleeping in Tahoe and going down to San Francisco to practice. Some swimmers (learning from runners) are doing some training in mountains, usually around 2 to 2.500 meters altitude. I believe some Brazilians went to the Sierra Nevada in Spain. American camps could be easy enough in Colorado, for instance. I did not look the pressure thing up now on the google, might later, but as I remember, the russians dominated the solid fuel technology, the landing on hard surface technology and the bringing the onboard pressure to one third one atmosphere (abou 300 milibars) to make the partial pressure okay. The americans use inert gases (nitrogen and others) plus oxygen to somewhere around 20 to 30% oxygen, which is ideal. The mixture to dive deep is with helium, so as not to have the "bends", caused by Nitrogen, but I don't know much about deep scuba diving. Anesthesia and ICU respirators turn out around 30 to 40% which you might enrich or make poor according to necessity. What I need to find out is how to make my motorcycle's mixture poorer...billy fanstone

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:22:58 GMT

Interesting. I heard those tents are allowed for now but discouraged because their use is not considered to be sporting. Also, I thought that U.S. spacecraft were also pressurized to 1/3 atmosphere, but with a higher oxygen concentration than 20/80, to make the same oxygen partial pressure as sea level.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:21:36 GMT

i thought so myself, that if i dont panic and all i can make it to the wal, but no, something must be wrong with my stroke or i dont know...i thought about hyperventilating, because 25 meters it so small distance that i would never ever faint ( and i can manage to do 20 meters with no oxygen), but i would like to try it "clean". Should i take just a big breath or try to fit some air into the stomach too, by extra small breaths?:) btw i start from the water, pushing off the wall, not from outside. I tryed swimming freestyle, on the surface, staring the bottom of the pool, barely, but managed to do even 30 meters ( with very slow turn) of very fast swimming with no oxygen involved.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:12:56 GMT

Alright, im new to this site, Im not a usual swimmer but i recently got in the pool and feel in love. I quickly made friends at the local pool on-base. Im a United States Marine with hopes and dreams in Becoming a Reconnaissaince Marine. In other words Marines with Gills. They are like the SEAL's from the Navy and Pararescue from the Air Force. The guys at the pool quickly tought me how to swim "the right way" cross-over and *** stroke as well as the Side-stroke and other technics. i go to the pool everyday. My biggest problem is dealing with the underwater 25 meter swim. To become a Recon Marine i have to accomplish the following.... 1) 500 meter swim with out touching the floor in under 17min. 2) 30 min. tread 3) Deep end Rifle retreaval and then treading water for 5 sec. 4) 5 min. water float by using trousers as floating devise 5) 25 Meter underwater swim (my problem) I have no problem with any of the others but the 25 meter kills me only because i feel like my lungs are going to explode. is there any tips of any kind out there that can prepare me for my "indoc" or evaluation to see if im sea worthy and serve as a Recon Marine. Thanks for hearing me out. :banana: Out of the five things you listed, number 3 bothers me the most; how heavy is that rifle? With ammo? As far as the underwater 25 meter swim, it will come with practice; your lungs will get used to it. Have a great pushoff, use your arms fully extended to grab as much water as possible, have a great frog kick and finish the kick, and let a little air out as you go. I'd have to say that in about a week or so, you can accomplish this underwater swim; as you train for it, your lungs will not scream at your brain that you need air. It's a process! But very doable! donna

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

jim thornton — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:45:24 GMT

Just got back from climbing Mt. Elbert in Colorado. I had a pulse oximeter with me, and at one point my oxygen saturation percentage was down to 72 percent. I was breathing deeply, and quite tired, but I didn't feel out of breath per se. At sea level, with the same oximeter, normal oxygen saturation is somewhere in the 96-100 percent range when you're not exerting yourself. I tried to see how low I could get it, back close to sea level, just by holding my breath while sitting on my livingroom couch. My reading started at 98 percent, I held my breath for about 90 seconds, till I thought I was going to explode with the urge to breathe--and all the while my oxygen saturation level just went down to 93 percent. That's 21 points higher than its nadir on Mt. Elbert at around 14,000 feet. Anyhow, Billy Fanstone has provided superb info in this thread. It's the build up of CO2, not the plummeting of blood oxygen, that causes that panicky feeling in your diaphragm where you feel you have to take a gasp of air. I don't know if a build-up of CO2 is harmful physiologically speaking--maybe our Brazilian poster can elucidate on this--but I do know that you can get by with an awful lot less oxygen in your blood than you will lose in a 25 meter swim, even if this takes you 30-40 seconds or more to finish. When we do breath control sets in practice, I always caution my fellow swimmers to surface if they start to see what appears to be a swarm of little black dots in their visual fields. No real scientific validation for such advice, but it just seems to me a reasonable step to take. To paraphrase the former president Bush, to continue swimming underwater when the world is slowly going dark "just wouldn't be prudent."

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT

"try to fit some air into the stomach too, by extra small breaths?" hate to point out the obvious, but the only advantage of getting air into your stomach is at the burping contest.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:26:42 GMT

How long did it take you to swim the distance in freestyle? I ask to get some idea of your swimming speed - and perhaps guess your swimming efficiency. My guess is that you are inefficient underwater. I haven't tried this recently, but I will guess that I could cover the distance (25M) underwater in 4-6 complete strokes (breaststroke). One stroke = 1 pull+1 kick. Hyperventilating is a bad idea. You should take some slow deep breaths before you try. Take one big breath before you start. Then while swimming slowly exhale during the swim.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:03:46 GMT

hi all! read this tread and wanted to say, that i have a same problem- trouble swimming underwater for 25 meters. I tried with fins, and only making scissor moves with feet and hands by the sides, i was like a racing boat and even 30 metes wasnt very hard to do (could have done more, but did not want to explore my limits). I also viewed those record videos, guy swimming for about 166 meters and so on, tried basically same moves, but i just dont have the flow! tried to slither through water like a dolphin, but it doesent really work, if i stare at the bottom of the pool, i dont see much movement at all and i usually grasp for breath about 5 or more meters from the end. tried taking deep beaths and smaller ones, really difference is marginal. about mu lung capacity in general, i tried last night, and with very deep breath i managed to get the numbers 1 minute 58 seconds on the clock. And i could have done more, but again. didnt really want to go for the very limit. any advice? thnx in advance.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:37:52 GMT

I think there are a few key points to good underwater swimming - most already made in this thread. 1. you must be efficient in your stroke. A poor stroke is wasteful of energy (and therefore oxygen). Notice in the record video how much streamlined gliding they do. 2. you must be relaxed. If you are panicky you will not be smooth and efficient. 3. underwater breaststroke is probably the very best stroke for most. Notice that the record breakers all swam underwater breaststroke. I saw many dolphin kicks in between strokes and a few odd flutter kicks mixed in. Other strokes may be faster - such as pure dolphin kick - but speed isn't the issue. You want to cover as much distance with the least amount of energy. If you can hold your breath for almost 2 minutes sitting still without suffering you should be able to go for 30 seconds or so underwater.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:48:02 GMT

Just to add my :2cents: to the very good advice you've already received. If you try too hard or try to go too fast (to get it over with sooner) you will run out of breath (in a manner of speaking) faster. Experiment and you will find a good medium speed that won't kill you. Don't exhale until you feel that you've reached your limit, then exhale a little bit. You'll find that you can keep going for a few more meters, then exhale a bit more then swim a bit more. Aim for an efficient catch (i.e., hold the water solidly and pull yourself up to your catch and then glide as efficiently as you can; minimum resistance or drag.) Here's something you might want to try. Try doing the 25m freestyle without breathing (not underwater). If you sprint all out, you probably won't make the length but if you go at around 60 to 75% power, you'll probably do it on your first go. Good luck.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:48:34 GMT

Or is that all mental? and i need to get over it? Swimming 25 meters underwater isn't very difficult, even with camo's on. I have 6 year olds that do it for fun. (wo camos) I do not even need to ask them. I know I am going to get crucified for saying this, but if that is all you need to do to pass the test to become a Recon Marine, then my advice is to just get er' done man. Practice different things. See what works for you in that situation. Experiment. 25 meters isn't very far. You are young, get er' done. You are going to have to swim a lot farther than that to escape any type of gunfire. Do as if your life depended on it.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:39:13 GMT

"So you can release some of that CO2, which releases some of that CO2 buildup." Rick, I can't let this go by without commenting. The buildup of C02 is in your blood, your lungs are just used to blow in and blow out air. If you don't renew the air in the lungs there won't be any change in the dynamics of the exchange of gases from blood stream to lungs. You will blow out air with C02, yes, but you won't make "space" in your lung for the C02 circulating to jump into your lungs, because they will be deflated. There is an equilibrium always between the blood side and the air side in the alveolli. More oxygen on air side will make it move into blood, hence breathe deeply and hold it for awhile because you are letting your blood "catch" the oxygen (the release of C02 is happening at the same time in the opposite direction). "that breathing out slowly allows better use of the oxygen in your lungs." Bill, this would work with scuba diving and very little with free diving. The breathing out slowly is just a way of making a PEEP (positive end expiratory pressure) which helps maintain the alveolli non collapsed longer. In running this is done by breathing out through partially closed mouth and other techniques. When all out, fast running, or swimming you just got to breathe in real fast and breathe out real fast, the PEEP factor is irrelevant here. You remember, when scuba diving, you deliberately blow out air slowly to use less air, and also to keep your balance and also to maintain position by not changing density too fast. When using a snorkel there is that slow deliberate breathing out. This wold work a little in free diving, or apnea, or whatever we are doing in this thread, but go a little ways with full breath held, then slowly exhale. One of my biggest problems and maybe for others here is exhaling as I am in the middle of a flip turn, so as not to get water up my nose, causing me to gasp for air sooner on the way out of the turn. Good swimmers keep the water out of their noses by slight positive pressure on the air there, but I am lousy and tend to blow air as soon as I start going upside down. Sorry for long post...billy fanstone

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:37:33 GMT

going under water for distance is scary. When ever I try to see how far I can go I feel like passing out at the end. The furthest I have gone is 75 meters. When you hold you breath for a long time you are basicly dieing and its not a good feeling. Be careful because passing out under water is not good. I know a kid who passed out under water and inhaled some water into his lungs. He spent the night in the hospital.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:28:58 GMT

Lots of good advice here - especially the point about CO2 buildup. Experienced swimmers know that their body signals the need to breathe earlier than you actually have to. Although I was just a decent high school swimmer, I was very good at swimming underwater. The summer before my freshman year of college (1976) I swam 100 meters underwater - two laps of a 50 M pool turning underwater. I used to practice swimming underwater because I enjoyed it and it was a fun challenge. The next several summers I was a lifeguard and regularly swam 75 yds underwater (but didn't make it to 100 yds - too many turns). I found the following helped: 1. swim efficient full breastroke at a measured pace. You may feel a desire to accelerate at the end to reach the wall when you feel like dying. That's OK - but don't start out so fast that you consume vast amounts of oxygen. Flutter kick is way too INefficient underwater and will burn up oxygen. I assume you have a workable breaststroke kick. 2. When I attempted my 75 yd. swims, I'd swim 25 yds first. I'd rest a bit, then do it again. The second swim was always easier than the first. Then I'd do a fifty and rest. Then I'd go for 75 yds. I think the warmup swims help you smooth out your stroke, stretch your lung cavity slightly, and get your confidence level up that you survived (and will be able to go further the next time). For your 25M goal, practice by starting with 10M. Pop up and relax. Next time go 15M and relax. Then go for 25M. 3. You must begin exhaling somewhere around halfway to get rid of the CO2. 4. practice in a 25 yd. or 25 meter pool where you can stand up. My two teenage sons absolutely kick my ass in the pool now, but I can snorkel underwater quite a bit better than they can now. As a related note - I met Tanya Streeter - multiple world record holder in breathhold diving. Google her and see what she has done. One of my son's friends hired her for some training tips (swimming). Tanya told him to prepare for races by slowly filling his lungs with deep breaths and exhaling slowly. She said this builds up a bit of oxygen that would not be present with normal breathing.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:58:53 GMT

I remember from my SCUBA training that breathing out slowly allows better use of the oxygen in your lunges. I also agree that faster is not better for this test. Stay relaxed and Glide a lot.

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

osterber — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:43:48 GMT

Yes - any time you are practicing this stuff, do so with supervision. I always think it's a good idea to release a little air as you go. That 'out of breath' feeling is really an excess of CO2, not a lack of Oxygen. So you can release some of that CO2, which releases some of that CO2 buildup. But watch out for passing out... that's why you NEED supervision. Stay relaxed. In a swimming-with-just-a-speedo scenario, it's much easier for me to go 25 yards underwater if I go slow than if I go fast. Sort of like a car... your best miles-per-gallon is somewhere in the middle. If you go really fast, you're just burning fuel too quickly. Personally, when I swim underwater, I try to swim right along the bottom of the pool, just an inch or two above. I find that there's a certain 'ground effect' that helps me stick to the bottom, so I can focus more on going forward and less on staying submerged. -Rick

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

ande — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:35:08 GMT

learn how to streamline take a big breath before you push off learn how to smoothly move through the water conserving energy and air ande Alright, im new to this site, Im not a usual swimmer but i recently got in the pool and feel in love. I quickly made friends at the local pool on-base. Im a United States Marine with hopes and dreams in Becoming a Reconnaissaince Marine. In other words Marines with Gills. They are like the SEAL's from the Navy and Pararescue from the Air Force. The guys at the pool quickly tought me how to swim "the right way" cross-over and *** stroke as well as the Side-stroke and other technics. i go to the pool everyday. My biggest problem is dealing with the underwater 25 meter swim. To become a Recon Marine i have to accomplish the following.... 1) 500 meter swim with out touching the floor in under 17min. 2) 30 min. tread 3) Deep end Rifle retreaval and then treading water for 5 sec. 4) 5 min. water float by using trousers as floating devise 5) 25 Meter underwater swim (my problem) I have no problem with any of the others but the 25 meter kills me only because i feel like my lungs are going to explode. is there any tips of any kind out there that can prepare me for my "indoc" or evaluation to see if im sea worthy and serve as a Recon Marine. Thanks for hearing me out. :banana:

RE: Underwater 25 Meter?

smontanaro — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:36:07 GMT

In case you need any extra motivation or want to look at some excellent technique, check out Stig Severinsen and friends. Here's one clip on Google: 2007 AIDA World Championships