Total Immersion and New Swimmers

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:36:12 GMT

Balance, Buoyancy and Breathing, the three B:s for new swimmers. www.youtube.com/watch :soapbox: haha, can't but love the new smilies

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:31:05 GMT

...One question: when I swim freestyle my hips are often too low. I've found this is one reason I can't remain afloat well for the whole length. Whenever my hips *happen* to raise to the surface of the water swimming becomes "effortless". So I would really like to know how I can keep the hips close to surface and not to sink. a lot of this has to do with balance and buoyancy, which greatly affects body position in the water, whether you are moving or not. fortunately these topics come up fairly often here... the last time i talked about it was at: Flotation & Buoyancy... Streamlining & Balance (Re: lose Crossover Kick?) a common corrective drill for this is to "swim downhill" (another common topic here). GeoChuck is "Mr. Swim Downhill", so you may want to check out some of his posts and links too. ...

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:43:35 GMT

ddl The quick response is release your head's weight until it's aligned with the spine, and make sure your hand is below your wrist and wrist below elbow from the time you enter until your catch. For more detail, I suggest you post that query on the TI Forum. You'll likely receive numerous helpful suggestions. Thanks for the very useful tip. I also went to the TI forum and found some very helpful discussions there. Put everything together today and I'm getting better--less tired, so that's a good sign. Hopefully I'll improve a lot in the coming days :D Really appreciate!!

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:23:34 GMT

Last time I mentioned going to my site for any reason they threatened to suspend me Terry. Use care we would hate to lose you.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:40:11 GMT

It's good to meet you too. I'm happy to have been able to contribute something to your enjoyment of swimming. You've definitely contributed A LOT to my enjoying swimming. I'm swimming every day now and, like you said in your book, nothing prevents me from getting up early in the morning to go to the pool... One question: when I swim freestyle my hips are often too low. I've found this is one reason I can't remain afloat well for the whole length. Whenever my hips *happen* to raise to the surface of the water swimming becomes "effortless". So I would really like to know how I can keep the hips close to surface and not to sink.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:01:16 GMT

DDL Easiest way to position your head is simply "hang" it - i.e. release its weight to the water. It will find its most natural position. If you wish to check that position, visualize your head-spine line as a laser beam extending from the top of your head. Keep that laser beam pointed in the direction you wish to travel. As for depth of hand or angle of arm, you don't have to reach particularly steep or deep after a Mail Slot entry. Aim to make your catch with the palm facing back, the wrist below your elbow and keeping the elbow as close to the surface as you can. You'll be able to maintain this "high traction" position better if you keep the hand/forearm pressure relatively light in the first moments of your stroke. Good luck. Thank you so much. I'll definitely practise on these points. KaizenSwimmer, are you really Terry Laughlin? If so, I'm so glad to "meet" you. Before reading your book I had never done freestyle at all. I remember how glad I was the first time I front-crawled from one end of the pool to the other end. Tons of thanks and wish you a wonderful holiday season! :D:D:D

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:48:18 GMT

Do you actually think these US swimmers follow the TI book or what their coaches tell them. Is TI that much differrent then the way coaches teach their swimmers. Terry has done a good job of compiling stuff. There are several things I don't agree with but anything that gets people to swim better is good. There are lot's of things I do agree with Terry. It helps to attend US swimming meets and focus on best swimmers to see how they swim. Most of them show what TI book try to describe on how to hang your head and catch the water. It is fascinating to compare those swimmers with the rest of the swimmers.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:39:38 GMT

I do like light hand pressure on entry and to the catch. My hand enters aprox 16 to 20 inches infront of my head then I reach and extend. When I get to the actual catch position I apply much greater pressure on the water til I get to the finish. As far as head position, I find mine varies quite a bit during my swims. My legs never sink my butt is always high just at the surface. DDL Easiest way to position your head is simply "hang" it - i.e. release its weight to the water. It will find its most natural position. If you wish to check that position, visualize your head-spine line as a laser beam extending from the top of your head. Keep that laser beam pointed in the direction you wish to travel. As for depth of hand or angle of arm, you don't have to reach particularly steep or deep after a Mail Slot entry. Aim to make your catch with the palm facing back, the wrist below your elbow and keeping the elbow as close to the surface as you can. You'll be able to maintain this "high traction" position better if you keep the hand/forearm pressure relatively light in the first moments of your stroke. Good luck.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:46:47 GMT

It helps to attend US swimming meets and focus on best swimmers to see how they swim. Most of them show what TI book try to describe on how to hang your head and catch the water. It is fascinating to compare those swimmers with the rest of the swimmers.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:09:14 GMT

Have a look at Popov's entry in this video: www.youtube.com/watch

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:19:35 GMT

posted by islandsox: " 2. Low in the water They are all too low in the water. Their heads and shoulders are completely underwater so they have to roll too much and too far to get a breath of air. This is causing "fishtailing" and a tremendous amount of body movement. I understand "chest pressing" in the water, but they have taken it too far." That's exactly my problem! And I had just realized that right before I saw this discussion! Thank you! :thhbbb:I learned freestyle solely by reading T.I. It really helps a lot. But, yes, I overdid the "swimming downhill". As recently as yesterday I was almost totally immersed in water trying to swim "downhill". The result of that was, my hands and arms could hardly reach to above surface no matter how far I tried to stretch my arms, and breathing was difficult. After I read your post, today I kept my head about the same level as water surface, with face underwater, and I floated well and breathing was easier. Only problem is this didn't last the whole length. I think I need more training on balancing and breathing. I often held breath instead of exhaling--the thinking behind this was, in case I couldn't get the air in time, I would still have air in my lung being held so I won't drown. What do you think about this? :confused:

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:59:51 GMT

Question for any TI swimmer could you tell me does TI recommend the hand entering the water 5 inches in front of the head then pierce and extend in the water which is 880 times denser then air. My extension if I placed my hand in the water 5 inches ahead of my head would then have to extend 16 inches in heavy water rather than the lighter density air. i will try to answer this. the "mail slot entry" (to use the same language as the article that appeared in the usms magazine) is a focal point that helps me perform several beneficial actions simultaneously. they are: a high elbow recovery, strong shoulder and hip rotation, and an integrated kicking motion (2 beat, 4 beat or what ever). all this while trying to disturb the waters surface as little as possible. of course everyone has to find the best entry position for the speed/distance they are swimming, and my observations are that once the good habits of high elbow, body rotation, etc. are imprinted, this is more easily accomplished than when one has a flat, over-reaching stroke. the idea that your stoke will suffer by having to extend 16 inches in heavy water doesn't take into account any forward momentum. so that the 16 inches of travel (from 5" above your head to your catch position) is only relative to your body, not distance traveled. (does that make sense?)

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:20:45 GMT

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:56:49 GMT

Thanks for the clarification. We have all missed your comments lately. The videos I have seen appear to be contrary to what I saw when you were swimming in a race. Is it that what you are doing in many of these videos is a lead up to the finished product, that is different from what is shown in the teaching videos.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:22:37 GMT

:applaud: Thank You, Thank You from Medina Ohio Were forming a work out group with 1/2 real swimmers and 1/2 tri's so this post was super. So thank you for all the good advice... Bob

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:24:27 GMT

....tired of seeing my bike by itself when i get out of the water. Hey remember most folks in your age group don't even own a bike let alone go racing in triathalons. You have nothing to prove to anyone. Kudos for even doing it!

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:18:19 GMT

Well kinda like drinking from a fire hydrant..lots of good stuff. Some very technical and a bit over my head. My goal is to quit being one of the last ones in my age group out of the water. ..Some good advice on the hip snap....still not to clear on the hand entry and when to set the catch. I typically have been entering near the ear...streaching out to full length , gliding a bit and then setting the catch...i think i am not accelarating to the fullest when i stretch so far and delay the catch. Any way my goal is to break 20 min in the half mile constantly....i'v done it once of twice........ but need to improve....tired of seeing my bike by itself when i get out of the water. thanks to all for the great help b

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:44:51 GMT

Hip snap not for me.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:07:36 GMT

Well thanks for the kudos....70 is just a number and i am well aware that most people that age don't do much in the way of excerise or sports. But, I don't look at life that way . I played flag football and softball until I broke my wrist 2 years ago. I participated in the senior olympics for about 10 years until it got boring and then I started TRi's at age 64. I'm determined to improve my times in all 3 events. I worked out in the Atlantic Ocean. I usually swim a mile 3 times a week. I used to swim with the current and used the TI stroke with great success and it felt good. But this year i started swimming half mile with the current and half against the current. It was then...fighting the current that I noticed i had to alter my stroke ...to keep in some case from actually going backwards. This goes to the crux of my original question? It seems to me that a quick catch is much more efficient than the slid and glide.....I guess as has been said to each his own...but I will keep searching until i find what i am looking for. How to get faster in the water. all your help has been much appreciated. BTW i just finished reading a thread on this forum and it seems Triathalets are not held in high regard. but I'm not a bad old coot:thhbbb: thanks bobby Bobby, you are an inspiration to many, including me! Keep it ALL moving forward! donna

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:37:48 GMT

I used to swim with the current and used the TI stroke with great success and it felt good. But this year i started swimming half mile with the current and half against the current. It was then...fighting the current that I noticed i had to alter my stroke ...to keep in some case from actually going backwards. This goes to the crux of my original question? It seems to me that a quick catch is much more efficient than the slid and glide..... Bobby - I swim with a TI-type stroke. For me, it has been very effective, however, it is important that you understand that "one size does NOT fit all", even with TI. My own observations are: with the current, go as long and as relaxed as you can. Against the current, you will still have the same basic form, but the stroke rate should increase - i.e. catch a bit sooner. Note too, that against the current, you must try to present as small a profile to the current as possible. If the current is at about 90 degrees, don't be quite as long in the water - a longer body with lots of glide catches the current and you get pushed sideways. Also, keep in mind that you want to CAREFULLY trade stroke length for speed - as you go faster, you will take an extra stroke or so per length. Don't try to hold your slow speed stroke length when you are going fast. In my case, I have a lousy (non-existant) kick. Although I can do 12-14 strokes/25 yards, I usually do more like 14 -16 strokes/25 yards. This prevents me from "stalling" since my kick does nothing to propel me much. If I had Ian Thorpe's huge feet and kick, I wouldn't stall, but I don't. Good Luck, LBJ

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:55:03 GMT

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:21:12 GMT

May I ask what exactly the difference is between ROLL and ROTATE? I've seen people use both of them referring to the same thing. Also the hip snap, it is hard for me to visualize how to rotate hip first when you pull. It seems to me that when you pull rotate upper body first, then hip rotation followed is more natural. Well, I'll give it a shot on describing it. The first thing to try to vision is my hips rotating left and right in conjunction with the arm pulls, providing great power to the arm extension and thus the pull. My left hip rotates (snaps) toward the right, my left arm is able to reach very far out front and "catch" water with the hand. As the pull proceeds and the right arm is beginning or in the middle to end of its recovery phase, my right hip rotates to the left (snaps) and my right arm is able to extend very far forward to again catch the water and start the pull. This is called rotation and a swimmer who does this simulates being on a skewer of sorts and swims more on their side than flat on their stomach (drag). As the hips rotate, the shoulders go into a roll of sorts (part of that front arm extension to grab a lot of water). But the hips rotated first, not the shoulders. Great power can be provided from hip rotation (core strength). Maybe someone else can add to this description or correct or add words if I missed something; kinda hard to do on paper. Donna

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:34:53 GMT

:confused:I have only been swimming for about 6 years. I'm 70 now and I learned TI from a coach 6 years ago. I now compete in Triatathlons and have a whole new life. I think that pretty well says it all. George is right - if it works for you, keep doing it. -LBJ

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Sat, 13 Oct 2007 05:09:04 GMT

... Now I'm told by a coach that slide and glide are not n favor.... i agree with the other comments, you need to find whats comfortable for you. this Thoughts on the Crawl Stroke article details some interesting ideas. it is extremely technical, but if you "find" 's Stroke> you will see these comments: "Thorpe does not rush the initial part of the propulsive phase of his stroke, as he takes the time to position the hand and forearm...." "The efficiency of Thorpe's stroke lies in his ability to get into the medial rotated position with elbow flexion while the arm is still fully abducted and the shoulder girdle is elevated (the position an eager child uses when he raises his hand to answer a teacher's question) and before the arm begins its forceful adduction movement. This manifests itself as a position that allows the hand and forearm to gain almost a perpendicular position in relation to the surface of the water before the elbow passes the top of the head during adduction. The fact that Thorpe takes five-tenths of a second to accomplish this movement in a 1.5-second total stroke cycle demonstrates the importance of this positioning movement to the stroke." take what you like and leave the rest.

RE: Total Immersion and New Swimmers

Former Member — Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:55:27 GMT

It is confusing do what feels good to you. Every coach will tell you what they think is right. Only you have to be comfortable with the results. There are lots of coaches telling you to go directly to the catch. I am not in favor of that. Do not let it confuse you. If you are happy with what you learned keep doing it.