Newbie Questions and Answers

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:42:21 GMT

A couple of weeks ago, I swam several 25s for time to get a seed time for a sprint meet. I learned several things from this experience, which I hope can save other Newbies some grief and pain. I'm not sure what went wrong, but I think it was a combination of two factors: (1) I wasn't nearly warmed up enough and (2) I tried to swim "faster" than my technique could hold up to. :doh: Anyway, I hurt myself - shoulders, upper back, neck. I swam through the pain for a week or so when everything locked up. Between anti-inflamatories, muscle relaxants, a massage, some chiropractic and a week off, I'm back to not hurting. BUT, I had hoped to swim my best in the upcoming meet and now I'm hoping just to swim without hurting myself (no 25s; I learned my lesson). I swam for the first time today (gingerly) and am totally cranked off at myself for messing up. :frustrated: Aquafeisty warned me of the dangers of swimming too hard to soon, and to be honest, I didn't think a few 25 yd sprints would count as too hard. So, my fellow newbies, before you do something like this (esp if you are swimming alone), consult with some of the gurus here on the correct way to proceed so you can do it without injury. :cane:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:16:09 GMT

This is predominant in people who drop their elbows and who start the "S" movement too early in the underwater pull portion of the stroke. And many people equate the "S" movement with the outsweep and insweep which is incorrect. Donna You just described me. My coaches kept telling me that I was dropping my elbow, but couldn't really tell me what I was doing to stop it. I recently started to feel the water more and have less slippage in the last half of the underwater stroke. How do I know that my elbow is dropping? I have very inflexible shoulders but have been working on it. 6 months ago, my hand entry would be near my forehead and because of my lack of flexibility would push my hand forward underwater into a kind of Hitler salute (palm down but below me). I know recover my arm completely above the water and my palm comes down on to the water. I think I went from one extreme to the other in trying to fix my elbow problem.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:06:01 GMT

Slippage is when you lose the water that you have grabbed at the catch portion of the stroke and fail to push that grabbed water throughout the stroke. Thus, the grabbed water is "lost" and the arm goes through the underwater stroke portion quickly in order to get to the recovery portion and into the grab (pull) portion again. This is predominant in people who drop their elbows and who start the "S" movement too early in the underwater pull portion of the stroke. And many people equate the "S" movement with the outsweep and insweep which is incorrect. Donna

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:55:16 GMT

Careful, too much slippage and you'll end up like me (if you're a chick of course!) :p :hug: :rofl::rofl: Donna

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

aquaFeisty — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:53:13 GMT

Thanks, Barb!!! Actually, Slowswim there was a thread a little while back re: short axis. Allen summed it up best, I think, when he said that short axis strokes have more of an undulation than a see-saw. Short axis is kind of misleading... I really think people called it that just because it's the opposite of long axis (which is a VERY good description for the body motion in free and back.) forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:14:18 GMT

You know me I try to keep it simple. True, George. I also had this group swim with fists and they realized the importance of the hand/forearm/correct entry was to the catch portion. One more set of e-z words to help with the dropped elbows: think of swimming with your forearm/shoulder over a barrel (exaggerated of course), but one gets the picture with that description. Dropped elbows=slow swimming. Always.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:02:35 GMT

Dropped elbows during the catch phase. Every triathlete I have worked has this problem. Most swimmers I have worked with have had this problem and it is easily changed. The fast change is to swim with the forearms. If this explanation works for you problem solved. If not it takes lots of words to solve this when we are writing it out. True, George. I also had this group swim with fists and they realized the importance of the hand/forearm/correct entry was to the catch portion. One more set of e-z words to help with the dropped elbows: think of swimming with your forearm/shoulder over a barrel (exaggerated of course), but one gets the picture with that description. Dropped elbows=slow swimming. Always.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:57:02 GMT

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:55:18 GMT

You just described me. My coaches kept telling me that I was dropping my elbow, but couldn't really tell me what I was doing to stop it. I recently started to feel the water more and have less slippage in the last half of the underwater stroke. How do I know that my elbow is dropping? I have very inflexible shoulders but have been working on it. 6 months ago, my hand entry would be near my forehead and because of my lack of flexibility would push my hand forward underwater into a kind of Hitler salute (palm down but below me). I know recover my arm completely above the water and my palm comes down on to the water. I think I went from one extreme to the other in trying to fix my elbow problem. I've been helping some triathletes here in Texas with this problem. Most every single one of them start the hand entry right by their ears or head instead of the arm entering straight ahead (at shoulder width with a longer reach). This creates a second problem to the slippage: it causes them to "fishtail" as they swim rather than more in a straight line. Once they started correcting this, they also started swimming forward and more straight AND with slippage reductions they travel faster. The fingertip drill helped them immensely, as did keeping an eye on their elbow being higher than the hand on the pull portion. I think for lots of people that dropping the elbow is just comfortable, but is a terrible habit. And it sounds as if you are making great corrections; way to go Bill! Donna

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 05:09:04 GMT

Dare I mention OJ at this time. OJ has lots of carbs. OJ gets everyone into problems.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Karen Duggan — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:05:31 GMT

Careful, too much slippage and you'll end up like me (if you're a chick of course!) :p :hug:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:32:55 GMT

(think of yourself as a shish kabob with the skewer in your head) I do that every day at work now! Thanx your explanation does draw a mental picture that does have utility. :notworthy:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:28:57 GMT

I'll take a stab at this, Bill, and let the experts correct me if I'm wrong. The long/short thing has to do with the axis your body rotates around for a particular stroke. In freestyle and back, the body rotates from side to side, along a long axis from the top of your head to the bottom of your torso (think of yourself as a shish kabob with the skewer in your head). You rotate from side to side with every stroke. In *** and fly, the body rotates (or in my case, should rotate) aroung a short axis going from one side of the pelvis to the other (like a see saw). You rotate back and forth with every stroke. I'll let someone else explain slippage.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:28:53 GMT

Long-axis strokes are backstroke and freestyle. Short-axis strokes are butterfly and breaststroke. Thanx, the term makes sense, but don't seem to be a particularly useful term. :violin:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:18:40 GMT

I heard all sorts of terms (long-axis/short-axis, SDKs, slippage - to name a few) Barb: I know SDK, but what is Long-axis/short-axis :dunno:and I'm almost afraid to ask, what's slippage? :blush: :confused:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:22:09 GMT

I do that every day at work now! Thanx your explanation does draw a mental picture that does have utility. :notworthy: Have to give credit to Carrie/Aquafeisty who explained it to me first. :notworthy:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

slknight — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:23:19 GMT

Barb: I know SDK, but what is Long-axis/short-axis :dunno:and I'm almost afraid to ask, what's slippage? :blush: :confused: Long-axis strokes are backstroke and freestyle. Short-axis strokes are butterfly and breaststroke.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

poolraat — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:36:04 GMT

But for me, it's just a shoulder issue. (The issue of whether fly is, by defintion, hard on the shoulders of masters swimmers has been debated in prior threads. For me, with an injury in the back of the shoulder socket/labrum and loosey goosey tendons, fly (and free) is hard on my shoulders.) :thhbbb: If you swam it right you wouldn't have shoulder problems.:thhbbb:

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

poolraat — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:34:15 GMT

Deleted, duplicate post.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

The Fortress — Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:11:57 GMT

:thhbbb: If you swam it right you wouldn't have shoulder problems.:thhbbb: Did you change your name? :thhbbb: You, buster, have never even seen me do the king of strokes. I have witnesses.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:35:17 GMT

Thanks, FQ. Funny story: One of the DVDs I have recommends fins for some of the drills, so that you don't spend as much energy on just keeping afloat. With that in mind, I bought some regular practice fins. The drills usually go drill 25/ swim 25 - the first time I did that, I built up far more speed on the swim part than I'm used to, didn't expect the wall so soon, couldn't stop quick enough and went flying into the wall. I had bruises on the side of my rib cage. I couldn't stop laughing and cursing.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

The Fortress — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:50:53 GMT

I don't like fly with fins mostly because it changes your timing and I think that it's such an important part of fly that it cancels out the benefit. I never learned fly with fins and think I am better off. The part about doing kick sets without fins is right on. I think it defeats the purpose. Fins for cranky shoulders are totally acceptable. I almost always do fly with fins, except for some 25s and occasional 50s. :thhbbb: But for me, it's just a shoulder issue. (The issue of whether fly is, by defintion, hard on the shoulders of masters swimmers has been debated in prior threads. For me, with an injury in the back of the shoulder socket/labrum and loosey goosey tendons, fly (and free) is hard on my shoulders.) But I compensate with so many SDKs, it doesn't seem to throw me off too much in races. But then I don't do 200 flys either where other factors are more important. I think fly drills with fins are great, where they just maintain body position. Although I'm not exactly a newbie flyer, I still do fly drills in almost every practice. I love the caterpillar drill, chest press fly and one arm fly. They are good drills to do with fins, as long as you're not kicking with the fins. You're just working on undulation, head position and body position. Fins use totally depends on the needs of the user and the purpose for which they're used. With tendonosis and a SLAP lesion (which I'm trying to fix), I wouldn't be swimming without them. I have no idea why fins seem to irritate people more than paddle and pull buoy use, but they do. Sigh. I guess it's the results that matter. To me, apart from the shoulder saving benefits, fins are an aid the same way drylands or weights are a means to go faster. I agree, generally no point in with kicking with fins unless you're working on SDKs. But fins may help people who are bending their knees too much while kicking, I guess. But I don't think it's advisable to use them to keep up in a kick set. Or to keep up in a swim set. Use them for a specific purpose or just for fun.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

FlyQueen — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:59:51 GMT

Fort-y - I agree with all you said. I like sprinting 25s & 50s with fins because I remember to kick all out the whole time then. MY ADHD gets the better of me from time to time with kicking. I don't like fly with fins mostly because it changes your timing and I think that it's such an important part of fly that it cancels out the benefit. I never learned fly with fins and think I am better off. The part about doing kick sets without fins is right on. I think it defeats the purpose. Fins for cranky shoulders are totally acceptable.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

The Fortress — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:42:00 GMT

The short fins are probably zoomers they come in blue and red. The blue ones are a bit more flexible than the red. They are supposed to help build muscles strength. They can also help people with wonky shoulders because they make your legs more effective and efficient and therefore take stress off of your shoulders. I use Zoomers on rare occassions but generally am anti-fin. In my opinion, the longer the fin the less work you do and the faster you go. When you put long fins on you just zip what feels like effortlessly to the otherside of the pool. I see no purpose for them other than scuba diving. Monofins are all the rage on here too (or is that just because my beloved FAF sistah loves hers?). My beef with fins is that people that love them tend to overuse them and become dependent. I tend to think that you should do about 75% (or more) of your practices the way you'll swim at a meet or in a tri. In other words sans equipment. #1 use for fins: shoulder savers (I have micro-tearing in my labrum aka tendonosis.) I'm not that fond of zoomers myself. I use the cheapo regular long practice fins. I had a nifty pair of finis Z2 I liked, but they disappeared. I wouldn't mind trying the zura fins, which I guess are supposed to promote a more natural kick and not be as crutch-like. IMHO: Longer fins: better for undulation, streamlining and SDKs Shorter fins: sustain form over longer distances, shorter/faster kick (especially with the finis Z2), makes you work harder than longer fins Wider blades: better for the short axis strokes Other uses for fins: ramp up cardio build leg strength muscle memory in the legs for efficient kicking and SDKs ankle flexibility enhance body rotation explosive speed work wicked underwater work good for some drills good for learning fly I think fin use really depends on individual needs and temperment. Many people on this forum have stated that fins have no place whatsoever in competitive swimming. This seems unduly narrow minded to me. Just because fins aren't used in an actual race doesn't mean, ipso facto, that they can't enhance race performance. Fins can, of course, be overused as a crutch, as FlyQueen notes. Chronic overuse can cause your kick not to be integrated well into your stroke, etc., especially over longer distances. But if you have cranky shoulders, like sprint work or need some variety/fun in your workout, go ahead. For me, with my fly/back sprint emphasis and cranky shoulders (and the fact that my times are improving), I can only conclude that fins are not only NOT harming me, but they are affirmatively improving my swimming. But to each his own. This theory would probably not work for a distance freestyler. It's really an individual thing. Some swimmers like toys, others don't. Use what works for you. It might be trial and error at first. I don't use kickboards, pull buoys or paddles at all. Oh, I rarely use fins for kick sets, except sometimes for underwater shooters or 25 sprints. But I do those without fins all the time too. My MF is definitely my very fav.

RE: Newbie Questions and Answers

Former Member — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:58:44 GMT

Speaking of fins, I have another question (or two). What do the different types of fins do to/for you? I've seen long "practice" fins, long really flexible thin fins, long skinny fins, medium length fins, and fins that barely extend beyond the toes. What's the story?