Butterfly rules suggestions

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Frank Thompson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:46:30 GMT

Here is where I read the claims of Henry Myers, W.W. Robertson, and Erich Rademacher. books.google.com/books

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Michael Heather — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:34:29 GMT

Now I have found that Paul Wolf scored (Second place) only on the Men's 4 x 200 Free Relay with Jack Medica, John Macionis and Ralph Flanagan. From what I have found, These four swam together for this race only and either did not score individually or did not swim any other event. More digging to be done. Just in! Jack Medica won the 400 Free and placed second in the 1500 in the '36 games. BTW, the Japanese team won the event, Hungary, France and Germany rounding out the top 5.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Michael Heather — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:21:26 GMT

Okay, so far I have found out that Paul Wolf was in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, not 1932. So that post dates his claim to some extent.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Former Member — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:00:08 GMT

Butterfly and Breaststroke two strokes. In 1955 Pan Am Games and 1956 Olympics butterfly had already been seperated. Butterfrog eliminated and no longer accepted. The fishtail stroke introduced which became the 2 beat dolphin in 1952 (this is why the change took place). The Butterfrog a terrible memory from the past is Peter Cruise's favorite stroke.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Frank Thompson — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:02:58 GMT

Rob: Actually, I mentioned David Armbruster in the link post I provided from November 30, 2006. Jack Seig was the swimmer that was coached by David Armbruster and so I probably should have mentioned both of them together like I did in that other post. In that regard Henry Myers was the swimmer and was coached by W.W. Robertson and so I should mention his name as well. I don't know who Eric Rademacher was coached by but he was from Germany when he did the over arm recovery in 1927.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Former Member — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:59:59 GMT

Burwell Bumpy Jones a favourite of mine. He swam at Camp Chicopee in all the summer events in The Hamilton and Toronto Area. Coach was Matt Mann at the camp. Matt's son was a very good flyer. Those were the guys I raced against.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Rob Copeland — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:47:11 GMT

Skip, To your list of “inventors” of the butterfly include David Armbruster, swimming coach at the University of Iowa, From en.wikipedia.org/.../Butterfly_stroke History The butterfly style evolved from the breaststroke. David Armbruster, swimming coach at the University of Iowa, researched the breaststroke, especially considering the problem of drag due to the underwater recovery. In 1934 Armbruster refined a method to bring the arms forward over the water in a breaststroke. He called this style "butterfly". While the butterfly was difficult, it brought a great improvement in speed. One year later, in 1935, Jack Sieg, a swimmer also from the University of Iowa, developed a kick technique involving swimming on his side and beating his legs in unison, similar to a fish tail, and then modified the technique afterward to swim it face down. He called this style Dolphin fishtail kick. Armbruster and Sieg quickly found that combining these techniques created a very fast swimming style consisting of butterfly arms with two dolphin kicks per cycle. Currently, the entire style is referred to as butterfly, but sometimes still also called dolphin, especially when referring to the dolphin kick. This new style was considerably faster than a regular breaststroke. Using this technique Sieg swam 100 yards in 1:00.2. However the dolphin fishtail kick violated the rules of the FINA and was not allowed. Therefore, the butterfly arms with a breaststroke kick were used by a few swimmers in the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin for the breaststroke competitions. In 1938, almost every breaststroke swimmer was using this butterfly style, yet this stroke was considered a variant of the breaststroke until 1952, when it was accepted as a separate style with a set of rules by the FINA. The 1956 Summer Olympics were the first Olympic games where the butterfly was swum as a separate competition, 100 m (women) and 200 m (men).

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Frank Thompson — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:28:55 GMT

George, you are correct with the dates of the change. Michael, I did not know about Paul Wolf being credited with the change. I have read many different stories about who takes credit for inventing the butterfly stroke. Names like Jack Sieg, Henry Myers and Eric Rademacher have been mentioned and now Paul Wolf will have to be added to these three. I am going to provide a link to the discussions we had about this a while ago. forums.usms.org/showthread.php

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Michael Heather — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:03:37 GMT

Skip, Rob, Bill et al, This part of the thread is proof that success has a million fathers. I knew Paul Wolf in the 1960s and swam at his swim school. So far, he predates anyone else's claim, but is not credited in print. I am guessing he used overarm recovery for part of his race and took credit later for inventing the stroke when it became popular. I'll do some more research and post any supporting evidence here.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Former Member — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:33:44 GMT

Splashback - SWIMMER Magazine, March/April 2005 – Butterfly’s Emergence Challenged 1950’s Swimmers URL: www.usmsswimmer.com/.../splashback.pdf

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Michael Heather — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:31:35 GMT

..... Ahhh, but Butterfly is indeed breaststroke! Overarm recovery was one of the early refinements to the stroke to go faster (Paul Wolf, 1932 Olympian, is generally credited with the change). It wasn't until around 1960 that Butterfly was recognized as a seperate stroke (since the classsical breaststroke style was no longer competitive with it). No breather and underwater breaststroke was also outlawed about the same time.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Rob Copeland — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:07:12 GMT

Actually, I mentioned David Armbruster in the link post I providedI should have known you wouldn’t have missed Armbruster. Back in my youth, I used to swim in the David Armbruster meet in Iowa City.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Former Member — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:25:06 GMT

Solution to arms dragging don't swim longer distances.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

The Fortress — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:38:51 GMT

I am assuming that not only did they not clear the water, but they were not together/symetrical? Many swimmers have difficulty getting the entire arm/forearm/hand above the water in fly, especially in longer swims, but I thought as long as they were symetrical in bringing the arms forward (and of course attempting to do so over the top) they would be okay. But if they don't clear the water at all, it's an illegal underwater recovery. An attempt to clear isn't enough. This isn't breaststroke!

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Kathy Casey — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:10:54 GMT

Regarding the armstroke: officials generally use common sense when judging "Both arms must be brought forward over the water...simultaneously". Inconsistencies in judging that part of the rule are appropriately addressed in officials' education and in officials' briefings at meets. Regarding the kick: the current language of the kick rule does not allow for a scissors kick. For dolphin kick, "All up and down movements of the feet and legs must be simultaneous." When breaststroke kick is used, 101.2.3 "Kick" (breaststroke rule) applies, and it states, "A scissors...kick is not permitted...". Kathy Casey, Chair USMS Rules Committee

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Redbird Alum — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 04:57:26 GMT

...Calgary Canadian Nationals 2006, wrists didn't always clear the water. 2007 YMCA Nationals, forearms didn't always clear the water. 2007 National Masters elbows didn't always clear the water... I am assuming that not only did they not clear the water, but they were not together/symetrical? Many swimmers have difficulty getting the entire arm/forearm/hand above the water in fly, especially in longer swims, but I thought as long as they were symetrical in bringing the arms forward (and of course attempting to do so over the top) they would be okay.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

Former Member — Sun, 24 Jun 2007 10:54:15 GMT

Alright ! New Bern, home of two great guys, both Indiana University students, contemporaries who probably never heard of each other. Walt Bellamy and Bill Bynum. Oh yeah. Calgary Canadian Nationals 2006, wrists didn't always clear the water. 2007 YMCA Nationals, forearms didn't always clear the water. 2007 National Masters elbows didn't always clear the water, Savannah 2004 Nationals LCM, 400 IM, same foot said not to be always higher than the other.

RE: Butterfly rules suggestions

TRYM_Swimmer — Sun, 24 Jun 2007 05:47:42 GMT

How are the rules interpreted that these aren't obvious?