Why certain strokes?

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:16:07 GMT

This is an interesting topic. I think genetics influence body shape and muscle fiber distribution, which impact swimmers. But I don't think genetic is a good predictor of backstroke vs. breaststroke (for example). I read the USA Swimming study some time ago and it was interesting reading. I haven't read it again but one thing I remember was that IMers didn't stand out. That makes sense to me - elite IMers of course are at least good in all four strokes but often are truly good in only one other stroke. Phelps is probably an exception. Some IMers (maybe Masters!) aren't really great at any one stroke. But I think we see trends in elite swimmers: - freestylers are often good at backstroke - flyers are often good at freestyle and/or backstroke - breaststrokers are often specialists, but frequently are very good IMers - distance freestylers are often freestyle specialists but are sometimes good 200 flyers or 400 IMers - most elite swimmers are tall, with lean bodies, long arms, and larger feet On short vs. long - I think we see lots of long axis swimmers, but I'm not convinced that fly and *** skill are often found together. I think breaststroke is the most difficult to reach high levels. It is so technical - and different from every other stroke including fly. I can't name an elite flyer that is also an elite breaststroker or vice versa. I see lots of breaststrokers that are GOOD flyers, just not elite at the age group level. There are always exceptions. I think a child at an early age may choose an event simply because they like something about it and simply through hard work get good at it. I think also that Masters swimmers break many of these predictors - because durability and training time may trump everything as we get older.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:07:11 GMT

Rob, following your analogy, perhaps in North America it should be known as the 'trending towards an obese populace' stroke...

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:33:58 GMT

Well, a big part of it is definitely genetic, and I'm sure body type can also be a major factor. My mom was a good backstroker, and I and my three younger siblings are all naturally backstrokers - I think all four of us started off faster at backstroke than freestyle. Then one year when I was in high school, my sister and I both discovered that we were pretty good at butterfly, too. Coincidence? I think not.

RE: Why certain strokes?

The Fortress — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:04:05 GMT

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:29:14 GMT

No Rob there is also American Crawl that is the stroke my coach taught me. Johhny W swam American Crawl not Freestyle. Johnny also made loincloths look manly...

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:28:09 GMT

I get it now. This is one of those British versus American things. The crown colonies prefer the “Australian Crawl” while those of us in the US of A prefer to be in the land of the “Free”. ...plus tax... ;)

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:45:43 GMT

Stud Truer words were never spoken, Free style to me is any stroke. The stroke mostly used in a freestyle race, is the CRAWL (yes I am shouting). Sorry for using caps Fort. Thanks Rob for the IM relay stuff you will only find me doing Crawl or Butterfly. None of the sea sick stroke - Backstroke, and never that other horrible breaststroke. Yay for the Commonwealth!! :woot: hehehe

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:38:54 GMT

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:26:15 GMT

Semantics, George! Freestyle is crawl. Freestyle isn't crawl. It's a convenience word. Since you can do sidestroke ina freestyle race it is not crawl. Those of us who appreciate the subtlelties, or semantics as you put it, tolerate the overuse of "freestyle," but we know the truth. A freestyle event may be most swam using crawl, but it does not name the stroke. Now go practice your eggbeaters like a good wannabe breaststroker...:thhbbb: (For those of you trolling in black and white, I actually really like Fortress and we publicly tease each other often--it's a special relationship:kiss1: ...not that we have a "relationship" or anything...I mean we don't. That's not to say that I don't think she's cute or anything, and hypothetically would have a "relationship" ...but I strongly deny anything unhealthy about our relationship--if it was a "relationship." OK, now I've cleared that up.... ) :rofl:

RE: Why certain strokes?

Allen Stark — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:22:57 GMT

Crawl is not a good description for that stroke,then again breaststroke isn't a very good name either(frogstroke?)Fort,you are a good freestyler because you are a bundle of fast twitch fibers and have good/great technique. Now if you would just embrace your inner frog you would be a complete swimmer.:groovy:

RE: Why certain strokes?

Rob Copeland — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:20:17 GMT

Yay for the Commonwealth!! :woot:I get it now. This is one of those British versus American things. The crown colonies prefer the “Australian Crawl” while those of us in the US of A prefer to be in the land of the “Free”.

RE: Why certain strokes?

The Fortress — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:10:25 GMT

I'm still not calling it crawl. I don't look like a crawler either.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Muppet — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:31:31 GMT

99% of the time that's what people do in the freestyle events. In fact, my own observations from masters and USA-S meets is that it is a 100%. Not my observations... 04 LCM Nats in Savanah. Someone - I think it was Bill Specht - decided to enter only fly and freestyle events, but swim them all butterfly. I can't recall whether or not the gentleman also did the 400. In fact, the muppets have separately entered separate 200 frees this last season and swam them backstroke

RE: Why certain strokes?

Rob Copeland — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:38:04 GMT

what stroke is freestyle..... Fly? Backstroke? Butterfrog? Breaststroke? Sidestroke? or Crawl? or all of the above.Freestyle is any of these and more, except that in a medley relay or individual medley event, freestyle means any style other than butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke. And if you want to be semantically correct, within the world of competitive swimming (according to FINA, USMS and USA Swimming rules) there is no reference to crawling; “In an event designated freestyle, the swimmer may swim any style”. This style could be a front crawl, back crawl, trudgen crawl, and who could forget the elementary backstroke. Except back crawl and elementary backstroke could not be used during the freestyle leg of an IM or MR.;):duel:

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:15:07 GMT

Johnny was actually swimming a refined version of the Australian Crawl. Duke Kahanamoku, the Hawaiian swimmer who won three Olympic gold was the final great improver to the Australian crawl. He changed the kick by adding more flutter kicks - six per arm stroke cycle, not two as like the Australian crawl.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:07:01 GMT

Originally Posted by Rob Copeland forums.usms.org/.../viewpost.gif I get it now. This is one of those British versus American things. The crown colonies prefer the “Australian Crawl” while those of us in the US of A prefer to be in the land of the “Free”. ...plus tax... ;) Actually, the first book I ever read about swimming (and from which I learned how to swim back in the mid '50s) was Johnny Weissmuller's book. Title: "Swimming the Australian Crawl".

RE: Why certain strokes?

chlorini — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:36:33 GMT

I suspect that the reason we can ask the question is because there is a combination of factors at work in determining which strokes and distances will suit which individuals best. In some cases, genetics (including both body type and things like fast-twitch muscle ratios) probably play a role. While there are cases like Fortress's, it is also not uncommon to hear of child backstrokers whose parents were the like, etc. In some cases, personality probably comes into play. Sprinters and distance swimmers often enjoy different aspects of a race -- sprinters may thrive on competition, adrenaline, a feeling of power, etc. Distance swimmers may thrive on a feeling of overcoming fatigue, rhythm, a sense of pace or building, etc. Finally, I would say that the ever-elusive "feel" for a stroke makes a big difference. Some people have an intuitive sense of fly timing, for example. Some novice swimmers don't have to be taught to use a high elbow catch or to turn their feet out in breaststroke. Why? I suppose this is a reiteration of the original question. Nevertheless, as a coach of young swimmers, I find it fascinating.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:23:34 GMT

and as an aside, i know i fit into the backstroke category pretty well, especially the lack of vertical jump :laugh2: Well I can jump Supergrover...that correlates with not being able to do backstroke...admit it though...you kind of have sympathy for me there... hehe

RE: Why certain strokes?

The Fortress — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:06:09 GMT

there's a rather interesting project that USA Swimming undertook around the 2000 Olympics. it's rather dense, lots of numbers and stats, but gives some insight into the connection between body type (ie genetics) and specialization in given strokes (treating sprint free and distance free as separate "strokes"). rather than getting yelled at for linking to the study, go to USA Swimming's website and type in "Anthropometrics" in the search feature. the first link that comes up is what i'm refering to... granted this is for elite swimmers, but it's still rather interesting, if you don't mind all the numbers. (just a hint, if you scroll almost the whole way down, there's a quick summary for women and men in each stroke.) and as an aside, i know i fit into the backstroke category pretty well, especially the lack of vertical jump :laugh2: Thanks Mollie. Fly is probably the best fit for me, except that I do have fairly long arms/torso. I guess that helps with backstroke. Fly was my best stroke for most of my age group career and I was generally better at 100s than 200s. I look nothing like the freestyle sprinters they describe whatsoever. I think this season I was ranked higher in the long axis strokes -- contradicting my fly body. (I guess the fly body needs better fly shoulders.) I don't know about this genetics thing. Other swimmers in my family are/were evilstrokers. If they're not swimmers, they're long distance runners.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 06:02:24 GMT

Maybe breastrokers aren't human either...kinda like the 4400 tv show.

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:49:10 GMT

... as an aside, in many European countries breaststroke is called "school stroke", i.e. it's the first stroke that little kids are taught in school swimming lessons... :blah:

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:34:31 GMT

(breaststroke just isn’t natural). Divine gifts are not common...only a few are blessed ;)

RE: Why certain strokes?

swimmieAvsFan — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:17:05 GMT

RE: Why certain strokes?

Rob Copeland — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:32:22 GMT

Johhny W swam American Crawl not Freestyle.I always thought Johnny Weissmuller won Olympic Gold in the 100 meter freestyle (twice), 400 meter freestyle and 4x200 meter freestyle relay (again twice). Okay, I agree that while swimming these Freestyle races, Weissmuller chose the American Crawl (not Australian Crawl) as his style. However he was still swimming freestyle. And in today’s world at least in short course yards, amongst the elite swimmers, freestyle is more like 60% streamlined dolphin kicking and 40% American crawl. But back to the original question “Why are most of us good at certain strokes and not others? Is it genetics, body type, coaching, preference?” I think it has a lot to do with genetics. My mother is a distance freestyler (excuse me crawler) and a flyer (butterflyer if we must be completely accurate), I am a distance freestyler and a flyer, and both of my children are distance freestylers and flyers. While my son is a wanna-be sprinter and my daughter disavows the ability to butterfly. None of us can do breaststroke, in fact my son’s coach has banned him from doing breaststroke in his presence. Nature or nurture? I vote for nature (breaststroke just isn’t natural).

RE: Why certain strokes?

Former Member — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:40:20 GMT

Why are most of us good at certain strokes and not others? Is it genetics, body type, coaching, preference? And why are some of us good at long axis, but not short axis? And vice versa? Or why are we good at one short axis stroke, but not the other? Tom Jager (the former WR holder not Jaegermeister) once said the best swimmers in the pool are the sprinters. His reasoning was that no one chooses to be the "Distance Guy" or the "200 Fly Guy". He just has to do it because he can't swim the 50 as fast as the sprint guy. I thought it was humorous to say the least. As I watched the sprinters train, I longed to be in that lane. Much better to do a couple of fast swims per workout, then work on starts and turns rather than 10X400 backstroke descend!