reaction time

RE: reaction time

Former Member — Fri, 25 May 2007 14:35:48 GMT

Anyone have ideas on reducing the reaction time off the blocks? Only one of my events at Nationals posted a reaction time, and it looks like I went ahead and finished a cup of coffee before I left. Was I just thinking too much? Or do I need a cattle prod? Here is a drill gauranteed to help your reaction time: Have someone stand behind you with some type of device to create a click. A WWII cricket is best. Place your arms forward at a 90 degree angle from your elbow and have your elbow at hip level. This will place you in a more or less ready position. Unless you have really long arms, you will be bent at the waist with your knees also bent. Have the person with the cricket, click it. On each click, touch your ear with your hand. Right first, then left. right,left,right,left... on each click. Then, standing in the same position, when you here the click, jump and rotate your body 1/4 turn to the left or right. Spend a couple of minutes at the beginning of each workout, or at least twice a week, and it will help in decreasing your reaction time.

RE: reaction time

Rob Copeland — Fri, 25 May 2007 09:11:34 GMT

Well, at least one of us shows some respect for our elders.

RE: reaction time

Former Member — Fri, 25 May 2007 05:04:22 GMT

Any forum regulars who try this drill, please post your first efforts on youtube...

RE: reaction time

Former Member — Thu, 24 May 2007 13:38:30 GMT

Also, I had this happen to me, I was drawn off the block by the guy next to me. It was a friendly meet so no DQ's. In a big meet would I also have been DQ'd? This would seem as good a place as any to express sympathy for Dave Newton, 81, of PNA who was in the next lane to me in the 200 Free at last week's US Nationals in Federal Way. He got a DQ for a false start after losing his balance on the block and falling forward into the water. He was distracted by my trying to fight off the two volunteer timers who were holding me tight after the "take your mark" command. (I hadn't explained what kind of help I needed to mount the starting block thoroughly enough, I guess). I tried to intercede for him, but the judge either didn't hear me, or pay any mind to my plea for clemency. Dave certainly deserves an apology, but there doesn't seem to be anyone in position to do so; except maybe me.

RE: reaction time

knelson — Thu, 24 May 2007 11:17:16 GMT

A negative reaction time doesn't necessarily mean a false start. Depends on how the sensor works. I could imagine being in contact with the top of the block, but the sensor thinks you've left if it doesn't register any weight. (You are stretched over the water, but toes still on the block.) I think they allow up to a -0.03 reaction because of this.

RE: reaction time

That Guy — Thu, 24 May 2007 10:37:50 GMT

Doug Strong, Watching the end of your 200 fly was one of the highlights of the meet for me. I was warming up for my 200 fly by the pirate ship behind the scoreboard, and walked out to find the crowd chanting GO!!! each time you breathed. I don't think I will ever forget that, especially when I'm standing behind the blocks wondering why I keep inflicting the 200 fly upon myself. Thank you.

RE: reaction time

AnnG — Thu, 24 May 2007 09:31:39 GMT

Oh no he definitely got away with one - the refs had to see the false start first then verify with the timing system. The pads were pretty accurate. Being a teammate with a very slow reaction time it was interesting to see - I switched from a track start last year back to a grab start because although a little slower off the block I get a better push with both legs and go deeper and further on the start, an advantage for me since I swim longer races primarily and have pretty good underwater dolphins. A person has to decide what is advantageous for themselves. The reaction time is just another piece of information to help with that.

RE: reaction time

rtodd — Thu, 24 May 2007 08:45:01 GMT

In track and field, the allowable reaction time is 0.100 seconds or greater. It has been shown than a human can't react to anything quicker than this and it would have to be aniticipation. Anything below this is a false start. For elite sprinters, a 0.15 reaction is very common. The blocks have sensors that can detect the applied pressure when leaving. There is a speaker at each block so the lane closest to the gun does not get an advantage. The first false start is applied to the field, each successive flase start results in the runner's DQ. I have no Idea how swimming works. Are there sensors? If so, what is the allowable reaction time? It has been my understanding that in swimming, it is a judgement call and there is no second chance. The first false start is an immediate DQ. Is this true? Also, I had this happen to me, I was drawn off the block by the guy next to me. It was a friendly meet so no DQ's. In a big meet would I also have been DQ'd?

RE: reaction time

poolraat — Wed, 23 May 2007 12:59:46 GMT

Rob, Out of curiosity were the reaction times used on false starts too? The dual confirmation applies here as in the take-offs. As a starter, if I observe a false start then I go to the referee for confirmation. Would the reaction times then be looked at for confirmation? BTW it was nice meeting you at the meet. Yes, they were using reaction times for relay DQ’s. However, before the officials look at the reaction times on relay take-offs, there must first be dual confirmation from the take-off judges that an early take-off occurred. So it is actually more difficult to get DQ’ed with automated take-off judging, since the automated take-off time can overrule a called early take-off.

RE: reaction time

Muppet — Wed, 23 May 2007 12:55:54 GMT

Oh yes did they use reaction times for relays - our mixed free got nabbed. I didn't see any reaction times listed for any of our team's relays, though. I would have loved to see the "-0.09" for that DQ and see what the rest of the relay transitions were. Oh well. I did see someone got away with a -0.17. They finished 16th, but still... As for track vs. grab, Kirk, I agree with you. I was somewhat vague in my comments about which to change to for this reason, but mentioned that I have already made one flip flop and will probably make many more. Whatever it takes to make sure I can beat you in the 500 next year in Austin!!! :fish2:

RE: reaction time

knelson — Wed, 23 May 2007 12:33:05 GMT

OK, that explains it. Interesting that Rob would post in a thread about start reaction times! How many times exactly did Mark Gill announce that Rob has the slowest reaction in masters swimming, anyway? It was a lot!

RE: reaction time

Rob Copeland — Wed, 23 May 2007 12:09:57 GMT

I don't think they were actually using the reaction times to DQ relays. I noticed in the relay results the swimmer next to me had a -0.09 reaction and the team wasn't disqualified.Yes, they were using reaction times for relay DQ’s. However, before the officials look at the reaction times on relay take-offs, there must first be dual confirmation from the take-off judges that an early take-off occurred. So it is actually more difficult to get DQ’ed with automated take-off judging, since the automated take-off time can overrule a called early take-off.

RE: reaction time

mattson — Wed, 23 May 2007 11:27:14 GMT

RE: reaction time

knelson — Wed, 23 May 2007 09:58:25 GMT

The only bad thing about the reaction time stuff is they can dq your relays a lot easier:doh: I don't think they were actually using the reaction times to DQ relays. I noticed in the relay results the swimmer next to me had a -0.09 reaction and the team wasn't disqualified. One thing to keep in mind about the track start, though. Yes, it will help your reaction time, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the better start for everyone. If the grab start gives you more forward velocity off the blocks and hence allows you to hit the water with more speed going into your streamline, then that could easily offset the reaction difference.

RE: reaction time

Former Member — Wed, 23 May 2007 09:26:16 GMT

I used to sharpen my reaction time by 'jackrabbiting' on a green light for a few days before a big meet. It was always amusing to do this to some 'vette or muscle car beside me; it would torque them up right proper when I backed off right away (mazda p/u at the time). I felt that it helped and since I was a police officer at the time, it was all ok (all in the name of traffic psychological science y'know).

RE: reaction time

Former Member — Wed, 23 May 2007 08:30:04 GMT

The bit about real track events being disqualified if you're under a certain threshold is true (as far as I know), it was bandied about in public back during the Ben Johnson scandal (he had explosive starts). I think I remember .29 as threshold, but I'm not sure.

RE: reaction time

BillS — Wed, 23 May 2007 05:30:29 GMT

Looks like you got away with one, Bill. Yeah, I did -- although it may not have helped as much as it appears because I was so freaked out about how close it was that I did a really lousy dive and pullout. I almost stopped to see if we'd been deked. But it did result in my best 50 *** split ever, so I'll take it. I sure wish we could have practiced with pads and sensors. That's pretty cool.

RE: reaction time

Jim Clemmons — Wed, 23 May 2007 05:07:23 GMT

My coach suggested the best way to do relay starts is to NOT look at the swimmer. Instead concentrate on the "plane" the swimmer needs to break. As soon as they cross this plane start your arm windup and stepup without paying any more attention to the swimmer in the water. Once you're commited to that start you should go full bore and not try to adjust for what the finishing swimmer is doing. ...and pray as your feet disengage from the block... That would be nice to pratice like that. I'll bet it helps a lot.

RE: reaction time

knelson — Wed, 23 May 2007 04:57:21 GMT

2) Sumerfield, Bill H M46r:-0.12 Looks like you got away with one, Bill. I actually had the opportunity to practice relay starts the week before the meet using a touchpad in the water and one on the block. It was pretty cool to get instant feedback. After a few tries it was pretty easy to consistently get within the .1-.2 second range. My coach suggested the best way to do relay starts is to NOT look at the swimmer. Instead concentrate on the "plane" the swimmer needs to break. As soon as they cross this plane start your arm windup and stepup without paying any more attention to the swimmer in the water. Once you're commited to that start you should go full bore and not try to adjust for what the finishing swimmer is doing. I really think this is good advice, but it's not as easy as it sounds!

RE: reaction time

Rob Copeland — Wed, 23 May 2007 04:16:41 GMT

Rob, Out of curiosity were the reaction times used on false starts too? The dual confirmation applies here as in the take-offs. As a starter, if I observe a false start then I go to the referee for confirmation. Would the reaction times then be looked at for confirmation?No, reaction time is only used on relay starts. If you think about it, to get a forward start (regular start) reaction time of less than 0.00, your feet have left the block which usually means that your body is out over the water. Any starter/referee who doesn’t notice a swimmer stretched out over the pool before the horn should get a white cane and a dog. Note the difference between track reaction times and swimming reaction time measurements is that in a track start, the reaction time is a measure of when pressure is applied to the starting block, in swimming it is a measure of when there is no pressure once the swimmer has left.

RE: reaction time

Muppet — Wed, 23 May 2007 04:03:25 GMT

I'm referring to regular race starts. The thought behind the question is this....in national and international track competition (I'm not sure if swimming has adopted this also) if the reaction time is faster than a certain time it is considered a jump because the "experts" have determined that the human cannot possibly react any faster than that. I'm not sure what that threshold time is, but it is a time greater than zero. I've seen this happen at track meets and have heard the time being discussed but don't remember what it is. Now THAT is a bunch of crap! I mentioned anticipation in my recommendation list above. If one of these track guys/gals does my "spy on the starter" trick and it works, they could be screwed out of a legitimate, albiet fast, start. What happened to the good ole days where we didn't need technology to do all this? Speaking of, I attended a swim meet very recently that didn't have a starting machine so they used the gun. It was awesome! Just like the old days!

RE: reaction time

poolraat — Wed, 23 May 2007 02:22:46 GMT

I assume you mean on non-relays? I don't really see how they could. Even if you were moving on the start your reaction time would be greater than zero. You only need to be moving when the start is signalled for it to be a false start. I'm referring to regular race starts. The thought behind the question is this....in national and international track competition (I'm not sure if swimming has adopted this also) if the reaction time is faster than a certain time it is considered a jump because the "experts" have determined that the human cannot possibly react any faster than that. I'm not sure what that threshold time is, but it is a time greater than zero. I've seen this happen at track meets and have heard the time being discussed but don't remember what it is.

RE: reaction time

BillS — Wed, 23 May 2007 01:52:22 GMT

Here's a real-world relay example of a negative reaction time that wasn't DQ'd: 12 OREG 'C' 1:57.50 1:55.42 1) Hathaway, David L M46 2) Sumerfield, Bill H M46r:-0.12 3) Wren, Mark B M48 r:+0.24 4) Boone, Lou M46 r:+0.34 r:+0.59 29.59 1:01.45 (31.86) 1:29.88 (28.43) 1:55.42 (25.54) I knew it was really, really close as I left the blocks. In the 50 ***, I got off in .51 and swam a lousy time for me. So reaction time ain't everything.

RE: reaction time

knelson — Wed, 23 May 2007 01:10:25 GMT

As for track vs. grab, Kirk, I agree with you. I was somewhat vague in my comments about which to change to for this reason, but mentioned that I have already made one flip flop and will probably make many more. Whatever it takes to make sure I can beat you in the 500 next year in Austin!!! OK, game on! I've always used a grab start and hadn't even tried a track start in a long time because they never felt right. I actually tried a few recently and they felt pretty good, so I might consider switching, too. At Nationals I used grab starts for all my individual events, but did use a step-up start stepping with only one foot for the relays, so that was effectively a track start. Out of curiosity were the reaction times used on false starts too? I assume you mean on non-relays? I don't really see how they could. Even if you were moving on the start your reaction time would be greater than zero. You only need to be moving when the start is signalled for it to be a false start.

RE: reaction time

funkyfish — Tue, 22 May 2007 10:39:02 GMT

I used to do some martial arts training in high school, and one of the things our instructor would tell us was to relax as much as possible when punching, kicking, blocking while performing the movement, and at the last moment "tense up." The idea behind this was that a relaxed muscle and mind would react faster than a tense one. So I would carry this over to my starts. Relax and be ready on the "take your marks" and then "spring" when you hear the horn, see the light, etc. However, I haven't had my reaction time taken so right now this is in theory. In a few meets that I've raced in and had my wife video, my start seems to be at least as fast as anyone else's. Now here's the bouncy thing :bouncing: