Oh Breaststroker Gurus

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Jeff Commings — Sat, 05 May 2007 10:57:14 GMT

I used to come as close to negative splitting a 100 LCM *** when I was a teenager. It made my coach and mom very worried. My first 50 and second 50 in long course were never more than two seconds apart. I can't do that now. The idea differential in the 100 should be three seconds in short course, four in long course (because of a lack of a turn at the 75).

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 14:36:22 GMT

Well, I'm here to tell you I negative split my 100 *** in my first meet in 20 years back in Feb.:o Let's just say I was a little slow, and leave it at that...:dunno: :dunno: 4 secs drop is optimal. I had a negative split though... lol must mean I'm super hahaha Seriously I think it's lack of 200 practices...my knee's been bothering me and stuff so I've limited the full stroke time I've been doing.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 14:32:50 GMT

I have no business being in this thread, please excuse me.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 14:32:36 GMT

Jeff, you are right on about this. I did some broken 200s, 10 seconds/50 during my taper, averaging 38s. Go figure... Those broken swims are excellent ways to practice race pace. Ideally, if you're getting only 10 seconds rest per 100, you should be within two seconds of your in-season 200, and 1 second of your 100. More rest will get your time closer to your goal. Good luck with the 200 ***.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 14:16:59 GMT

Last week I split 34.71, 38.37, 38.67, 38.50 (2:30.25) in the 200 ***. That's also 1:13.08, 1:17.17 for a plus 4.07 on the second 100. That turns out to be a very common split for a 200. Check out the top 16 from 2006 USMS SCY Nats. I believe they averaged just a tick over plus 4.0 seconds on the second 100 in the 200 ***.:bow: 4 secs drop is optimal. I had a negative split though... lol must mean I'm super hahaha Seriously I think it's lack of 200 practices...my knee's been bothering me and stuff so I've limited the full stroke time I've been doing.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 14:03:43 GMT

Last week I split 34.71, 38.37, 38.67, 38.50 (2:30.25) in the 200 ***. That's also 1:13.08, 1:17.17 for a plus 4.09 on the second 100. That turns out to be a very common split for a 200. Check out the top 16 from 2006 USMS SCY Nats. I believe they averaged just a tick over plus 4.0 seconds on the second 100 in the 200 ***.:bow:

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 12:37:47 GMT

I'm not scared of the pain (yet lol)...I'm scared of going too fast too early and burning out. I guess I'll have to try a few hadrcore 200's and push it more. See what I can do. Then I can get back to the 100's for pace that I was doing before like you told me Allen. Thanks all for advice and tips.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 10:41:08 GMT

Rich, just a small note: when told that the first 50 is faster, then the rest even, that does not mean that you sprint it. Oh no, don't do that. It means, exploit your dive velocity into a faster 50. Then, yes, you establish the pace, yes, which will feel harder and harder to maintain as the race goes on, even though you maintain the splits evenly. That is the crucial point, finding that pace.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Karen Duggan — Fri, 04 May 2007 10:13:01 GMT

That's ideal. Nicely done. I'd love to do that again! Sigh. Need more :drink:s

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Karen Duggan — Fri, 04 May 2007 09:47:23 GMT

As with most 200 strategies, one is supposed to really push the 3rd 50 and hang on the 4th. Of course pushing that 3rd 50 REALLY hurts, and your split is still the same as the 2nd (ideally)... just not fair! That conditioning thing comes into play that 4th 50. A few times in the past years I did not swim MY race as I was trying to beat a teammate or two. Kicked myself both times afterward! I took it out way too fast and didn't have the conditioning to bring it home... Must... be... patient.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Allen Stark — Fri, 04 May 2007 08:32:23 GMT

The only way to learn to pace a race is to do race pace in practice so you know how it feels.I like to do 100s at my 2nd 100 goal time. Others like broken swims. The important thing is to know what the pace feels like. It is very easy to lose concentration in the middle of the 200.My 2nd 50 is almost always my slowest split(something I am working to change.)In the race,concentrate on staying long and strong in the middle 100. One thing I do every now and then when I am feeling masochistic is to swim a 200 sprinting the first 50 and then trying to stay long for the rest of it. This can be a real confidence builder(but don't do it early in your training as it can be a real confidence destroyer.)

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Jeff Commings — Fri, 04 May 2007 08:10:07 GMT

What to do then fellas? I train alone. Tough to get someone to help me on pacing tempo. This is where mental training comes in. Swimming is 80 percent mental, 20 percent physical. Not to say that if you have a strong mind that you, too, could go 1:43 in a 200 LCM free. But if you have done the work that Michael Phelps has done, but not prepared your mind, he will beat you every time. You have to train your mind to swim harder in the middle 100 than you want. I loathe the 200 ***, which is why you'll never see me swim it, but when I did, a lot of self-talk got me through the last 125. Those broken swims are excellent ways to practice race pace. Ideally, if you're getting only 10 seconds rest per 100, you should be within two seconds of your in-season 200, and 1 second of your 100. More rest will get your time closer to your goal. Good luck with the 200 ***.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 06:04:12 GMT

SS, the 200 *** is a race I've become all to familar with. You are just learning how to race 200s, right? You have to figure out what works for you, negative splitting, positive splitting or even splitting. Ideally, each 50 (sans the 1st) should be swum at the same speed. That takes a lot of pacing practice in practice.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 05:55:32 GMT

SS, A good way to know when and where the engine failure begins is to do some time trials at least once a week. Can the lifeguard time you? Having the pool to yourself gives you the unique opportunity in being able to customize your training. Try to build into the race. Not too hard... or the back half will be a challenge...But not so controlled that you last fifty is nearly as good as the first one. Everyone is different...so a bit of trial and error is key to getting your personal strategy worked out. At the end of the day...the ideal way to learn more about race pace is to do more of them ...whether they be at meets or time trials.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 05:43:50 GMT

I think a lot of it is experience, but you can probably do some things in training to help. Really focus on getting out strong and then trying to hold that pace. It might be useful to find the point where you can't keep the pace anymore and die on the last 50. When you find that, just back off slightly. Yeah I think that's a good point for a no coach swimmer. Chlorini's intimidation thing is partly right. I remember the first times in training and at meets where I died doing a 3:20 or something. Now I get out from the BR200 and I don't feel hammered. If I do 200 FR I feel hammered. However, positive view, I've been working on my technique and it's gotten better, and my times have dropped too...maybe now is the time to get the engine building bit going...maybe I can tighten up the BR200 challenge Kirk?

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 05:27:04 GMT

I used to negative split in college and my teammates loved it until championship time and in big races negative splitting against the big-dogs doesn't work and you end up losing close races. So, start training a little bit different and lower try to get that first 100 about six seconds faster then the last 100. Just my opinion, Coach T

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 05:25:43 GMT

What to do then fellas? I train alone. Tough to get someone to help me on pacing tempo. Shall I do 50's until I get the cadence ingrained for a 42 or soemthing? I was the fastest guy in this heat...so that may have explained some of that. I think I can proabably get that 2:56 to at least 2:50...I always seem to find something for the finish.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Former Member — Fri, 04 May 2007 05:14:44 GMT

Good example of what I would consider great splits would be something like 35 40 40 40. To go from 46 to 41 on your last fifty is showing that you are not commited soon enough to the race. Try to even out those last 3 50's is what I think you should do.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Karen Duggan — Fri, 04 May 2007 03:29:57 GMT

SS- I used to have a pretty decent 200 (high 2:20's). My best splitting went 1:12+ and 1:16+. These days if I go under 2:40, I'm happy. Right now, for Nationals I'm planning on an easy first 50, and even splitting the rest. Hopefully something like: 36.5ish, and then 40.0s. It has been recommended to me to try a tempo trainer. The idea with that is that you get a rhythm down. I e-mailed the coach of a breaststroke World Record holder a couple of years ago and actually got a response! He told me of a drill that he did with J. Hardy before she broke the WR. PM me, big boy, and I'll tell you all about it :rofl: It's all about practice. See what works and what doesn't. Always keep trying new things, because you never when the old ones will suddenly click. Most of my workouts have more br. drill than swim.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

aztimm — Fri, 04 May 2007 02:46:02 GMT

One of the best training things that helps my 200 distances (free and ***) is broken swims. Of course, training in the 200 helps too. Anyway, if you have access to a pace clock, you should be able to do this yourself. Do a 200 ***, but stop on various distances for a different amount of time. Examples: * Stop on the 100 for 15 sec * Stop on the 50 for 10 * Stop on the 25 for 5 When you're all done, subtract the rest, and it usually gives a good indication of what you'll do in a meet (provided you actually take the full rest). The rest should also give you enough time to note in your mind when you came in. If you don't have access to a pace clock, or if it is too far away to see, one of my lanemates brings a water bottle with a cheap digital watch ruberbanded to it. I could certainly do better with my splitting, I just researched some of my 200 BR meet times, and I tend to go out way to fast, and barely make it in at the end (times about 35, 40, 42, 43).

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

knelson — Fri, 04 May 2007 01:38:40 GMT

What to do then fellas? I train alone. Tough to get someone to help me on pacing tempo. Shall I do 50's until I get the cadence ingrained for a 42 or soemthing? I think a lot of it is experience, but you can probably do some things in training to help. Really focus on getting out strong and then trying to hold that pace. It might be useful to find the point where you can't keep the pace anymore and die on the last 50. When you find that, just back off slightly.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

chlorini — Fri, 04 May 2007 01:35:54 GMT

SwimStud, I wouldn't panic at this point -- your splits show that you aren't burning yourself out by taking our your race frantically, which is great considering that you only have a few meets under your belt. They also do suggest that you may still feel a little bit intimidated by the 200 distance. Remember, it's still a pretty short time (less than 3 minutes) to be pushing hard. It may help to do some 200s in practice where you take it out fast and just try to hang on. See what happens. You may find that you don't need to slow down in the middle to go fast at the end. And even if you fade a little, you may still end up faster. For example, a 41-42-43-44 would still get you your 2:50. If you try this in practice, you can gain some confidence as to what speed you can maintain. Then, by the next time you race, you may be able to have splits that make you happy (like 41-42-42-41 for a 2:46!) Good luck, and don't worry. You're thinking, improving, and doing well. Chlorini

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

knelson — Fri, 04 May 2007 01:21:26 GMT

Yes, definitely. If you can come back on your last 50, say, a second faster than the third 50 I think you're taking it too easy in the middle of the race.

RE: Oh Breaststroker Gurus

Jim Clemmons — Fri, 04 May 2007 01:20:09 GMT

Here is my latest 200 BR splits. Do you thnk I am taking it too easy in the middle? 42.19, 46.44, 46.16, 41.91 a faster back 100? Absolutely!