Straight Arm Fly

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Sat, 05 May 2007 12:46:41 GMT

I don't think the straight arm recovery is an issue, but I did wonder about the leading wrist issue. When you enter the water, are your hands bent back, in a limp wrist fashion? That's how Micahel Phelps "enters", his thumbs (not his thumb-tips but his thump-pads) touch the water's surface first, with his fingers pointing about 89 degrees to his body's longitudinal axis. Look at the first 20 seconds of youtube.com/watch This agrees with the theory of recovery of Freestyle as well: During recovery, let your shoulders do the work from shoulder to elbow and let the whole region from elbow to fingertips be completely relaxed. Yes, the wrist looks "limpy" as you said, but it really is completely relaxed and not doing any needless "work".

RE: Straight Arm Fly

The Fortress — Sat, 05 May 2007 11:54:07 GMT

Swimming breaststroke is so much easier. (ducking for cover) Very funny. Fly is way easier than evilstroke. The timing is tricky, but not as difficult as evilstroke. I'm sure Paul will be along to discuss the gymnast/diver/ballet dancer connection. I will just say that I don't have duck feet, and that must be the source of the problem. Crucifix test: (I had to ask too.) Stand up with arms straight out at shoulder level at a 90 degree angle, so your body is mimicing a cross. I don't see how you do the test if you're horizontal as Rec Swimmer suggests. When you turn your hand back, your thumb has to pointing to the wall in back of you or toward the floor (if you're flexible enough). I think my thumbs go in pretty much the same way as Phelps, probably not as relaxed. FYI, Ande told me that straight arm/wrist leading fly was fine, and I should carry on as is. It's just interesting that people have different ideas. I'm going to look at the link Kirk provided.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Jeff Commings — Sat, 05 May 2007 10:14:40 GMT

Swimming breaststroke is so much easier. (ducking for cover)

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Sat, 05 May 2007 05:15:33 GMT

pardon my ignorance..but can you elaborate on "crucifix" position?:confused: thanks Maybe people with weak shoulders had better do this test in a horizontal position? Just my :2cents:

RE: Straight Arm Fly

slowfish — Fri, 04 May 2007 07:56:50 GMT

Put your arms in the crucifix position straight out at 90 degrees with thumbs forward and then turn the hand back so your palms are facing up. pardon my ignorance..but can you elaborate on "crucifix" position?:confused: thanks

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 16:57:38 GMT

I was told that you needed to be super flexible to do the straight arm without straining the shoulder. Here's the test. Put your arms in the crucifix position straight out at 90 degrees with thumbs forward and then turn the hand back so your palms are facing up.... Interesting test. I can barely get my palms within 45deg to being face up. So for all you folks out there with doubts about your flexibility impeding your fly development, there is hope. For me, perseverance and an indomitable will are the keys. Just a few weeks ago I got one of the best compliments I’ve ever gotten. A highly respected swim coach at my pool gave me some feedback on my fly and stated my timing was great (wow, what a huge relief that was), but that I might want to alter my entry. She suggested arching my back more, like going over a barrel. She cautioned me that it would likely shorten my glide. I tried it on my next few visits and it was really awkward, and even painful. I decided it was just a case of “we are all similar but different”. I also realized that I NEED a long glide so that I have plenty of time before starting the catch/pull to set my shoulders (to protect them), which I accomplish mainly through a rotation gained by really opening up the chest wide, chest pressed down, wrists high... along with those ever so elusive hips high, legs trailing (because I'm at he end of my glide). This is how I start doing fly from a dead stop prone position. Simply press the chest down, keep the wrists high, and go (by pulling and kicking yourself FORWARD ). If I execute it well I can even get a breath on that first pull. I’ve tried to match the vids I’ve watched (mainly Phelps and DeBruin), but I simply cannot do what these people do. I’m amazed at how they start the catch and pull at almost the instant their hands hit the surface of the water. My “dude” side wants to apologize for any implication that your stroke was broken, :"> it is just that in order to maintain my “bubba” status I feel obligated to throw that one out every so often, and it’s been a while. :-D

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 15:54:29 GMT

... Is straight arm fly really hard on the shoulders? Should we be leading with the elbows instead of the wrists?... Thoughts? I should have every excuse to not be able to do fly without (further) damaging my shoulders, but I’ve developed a pretty decent fly technique in recent years. (Not long lasting, but it is decent form.) I do a straight arm recovery, and near as I can tell I turn my hands palm down the instant they clear the water (if not sooner). My arthritic damaged shoulders won’t allow anything else. I can do 25’s for as much as I have wind for, I can do 50’s as much as I care to. 100’s are a challenge, but doable. I’m gonna (probably) try a 200 again someday (soon?). I can’t imagine doing a 1Kyd/m fly, not in this lifetime. But if I do it in moderation I can keep it looking and feeling good and not feel like I’m overstressing my shoulders. Most vids and photos I see are flyers arms exiting straight armed, leading the recovery with the wrist, which makes a lot of sense (and looks good too ;-). I see some flyers exiting with an elbow 1st recovery. These swimmers always look super smooth and relaxed in their fly, like they could do it all day long. Haven’t quite figured out how this is done other than that they must have super flexible shoulders. IMHO the only points of real concern are what you do to exit and enter the water with your arms, what you do in-between doesn't matter near as much (unless you are looking for some sort of record I reckon). Arm position in the recovery can have an effect on body position, which is oh so critical in fly, but while we are all similar, we are not all the same. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. ...

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 15:52:47 GMT

Here's a few article that may help you. swimming.about.com/.../endswimshoulder_5.htm findarticles.com/.../ai_n8886189 findarticles.com/.../ai_n9423906 Our team flew in a clinician who cured our freestyle swimmers with cronic shoulder problems by telling them to look at the palm when the started their recovery. It worked but it's not an easy habit to break. The entry didn't change just their immediate recovery. In fly, we've only had shoulder problems in swimmers who bent their arm on the earliest stage of their recovery while their wrist pointed forwad. We found bending the elbow even a little bit caused problems in most swimmers who've been swimming fly more than two or three years. Good luck, Coach T

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 15:27:03 GMT

Can someone explain/elaborate on the alternative to a straight arm recover for fly? Perhaps even point to video or pictures of the alternative? Thanks!

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 14:27:22 GMT

I'm a straight-arm flyer with TWO damaged shoulders from rotator cuff injuries from long ago. I lead with my wrists. I have no problem with shoulders during fly & I did a 1000 fly at a meet last year. However, rotator cuff strengthening exercises are a routine part of my training. I have much more trouble with freestyle but only on the recovery part of the stroke, where one arm wants to drop out of the shoulder socket on occasion.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 14:21:28 GMT

I was watching Phelps the other day and said to Chuckie that I could see my fly in his stroke. Never as good as his fly but resembles leading with the wrists and quite a straight arm recovery. Today will be the 2nd time back in the water since March the 1st. I will get the video of my fly in a few weeks and try to show you what I do in the fly.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 13:44:12 GMT

I don't think the straight arm recovery is an issue, but I did wonder about the leading wrist issue. When you enter the water, are your hands bent back, in a limp wrist fashion? I remember a guy in age group whose hands entered that way . It didn't seem to be a problem for him, but I always wondered if it was a very efficient way to start the pull.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

poolraat — Thu, 03 May 2007 12:32:13 GMT

I've noticed in the few still photos I have of my fly that my elbows are bent, yet when watching the video it is not as apparent. Leslie, the crucufix test you mention I can do but the first time I do it, there is some discomfort in the shoulder I injured 2 years ago. Each consecutive time is easier, but the elbows don't really like it either.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

The Fortress — Thu, 03 May 2007 12:06:09 GMT

I do a straight arm recovery, and near as I can tell I turn my hands palm down the instant they clear the water (if not sooner). My arthritic damaged shoulders won’t allow anything else. I can do 25’s for as much as I have wind for, I can do 50’s as much as I care to. 100’s are a challenge, but doable. I’m gonna (probably) try a 200 again someday (soon?). I can’t imagine doing a 1Kyd/m fly, not in this lifetime. But if I do it in moderation I can keep it looking and feeling good and not feel like I’m overstressing my shoulders. Most vids and photos I see are flyers arms exiting straight armed, leading the recovery with the wrist, which makes a lot of sense (and looks good too ;-). I see some flyers exiting with an elbow 1st recovery. These swimmers always look super smooth and relaxed in their fly, like they could do it all day long. Haven’t quite figured out how this is done other than that they must have super flexible shoulders. IMHO the only points of real concern are what you do to exit and enter the water with your arms, what you do in-between doesn't matter near as much (unless you are looking for some sort of record I reckon). Arm position in the recovery can have an effect on body position, which is oh so critical in fly, but while we are all similar, we are not all the same. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. ... I was told that you needed to be super flexible to do the straight arm without straining the shoulder. Here's the test. Put your arms in the crucifix position straight out at 90 degrees with thumbs forward and then turn the hand back so your palms are facing up. This is pretty easy for me, so I think I'm flexible enough. Got those funky hyperextended elbows. No, don't want to change something that ain't broke. Just want to ease shoulder strain whenever possible. But a bent arm fly seems unnatural to me. Maybe the bent arm flyers aren't the sprinters? I think I'm exiting as you describe. I'll have to pay more attention when I swim today!

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 08:02:25 GMT

cgi.cnnsi.com/.../2.jpg Thanks Kirk. Is it really possible that that style is easier on the shoulders than a straight arm recovery? My shoulders, which have no problem with a straight arm recovery wouldn't tolerate that style at all. And while we're on the topic, what is the advantage supposed to be of rotating your arms and hands so that your palms face the ceiling instead of just leading with the top of the wrist? My shoulders don't like that rotation either, and I don't understand the motivation behind it, yet it is mentioned a lot.

RE: Straight Arm Fly

Former Member — Thu, 03 May 2007 06:28:22 GMT

I'm mostly a straight arm flyer too I suppose....As I have mentioned before in other threads, I like to think of my arms as being like the oars on a row boat....They only clear the water by about an inch or two and they sweep around quickly during the recovery phase much like oars do (and I try and keep my recovery as smooth and energy efficient as possible too)....oars are straight last time I checked. One reason for utilizing this kind of recovery is so that you do not have to lift your front end up very high out of the water to take a breath....I believe in grabbing quick breaths and keeping my head down and body postion as level as possible with the water....then I let my kick drive the stroke and if you time the kick(s) correctly, the propulsion from your second kick should keep your forward momentum going while your arms quickly sweep around during the recovery phase....thats the idea in theory anyway. Bork

RE: Straight Arm Fly

knelson — Thu, 03 May 2007 01:03:04 GMT

Can someone explain/elaborate on the alternative to a straight arm recover for fly? Perhaps even point to video or pictures of the alternative? Thanks! cgi.cnnsi.com/.../2.jpg