Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 16:45:12 GMT

Rules are always open to interpretation by people, hence the need for lawyers, The Supreme Court, Circuit Courts of Appeals, etc. FINA is no different. There are rules that can be argued in various fashions by various people. If the rules that govern our nation are not cut and dry then I would certainly not expect the rules for something as insignificant (relatively speaking) as swimming to be either. As long as people are involved there will be conflicts.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 16:23:41 GMT

This just slapped me upside the head, but if the rules are so important to FINA to determine what is a world record and what isn't a world record, then why do they seem to be able to enforce the one's they want too and not others(a lot like NASCAR) If the rules are so dang important, why didn't the japanese breastroker get DQ'd after video clearly showed the fly kick? And why didn't FINA tell the swimming nations that the rule wouldn't be changed? Instead of enforcing the rule, they changed it so they didn't have to enforce it. It seems like they only enforce rules when they feel like it and not others. At the meet, a FINA official was quoted in the Aussie press, telling Swimming Australia's head person to file for ratificiation, as the FINA official did not see any reason why the record wouldn't be ratified. And just for Poolrat... :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :dedhorse: :dedhorse:

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:39:49 GMT

I posted this already, but there is no way there was any benefit of a draft of this race. First, as George mentioned Phelps was in the middle of the lane. Lenton was kind of in the middle, a little closer to Phelps side. 2nd, in contrast to what George said, these lane lines elimnate the possibility. Look how smooth the water is a lane over.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:33:34 GMT

And my apologies for this digression to those discussing Libby Lenton’s phenomenal swim. Rob it only ads to this discussion. I thank you for your comments.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 15:21:57 GMT

I have drafted in a pool with the wavebuster lane dividers. That is when the swimmer in the lane that I was drafting from was very close to the ropes and I was so close to the ropes, I was nearly pulled under the ropes and at his arm pits. Phelps was in the center of the lane and no where in the race did I see her really close to the ropes.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 14:30:21 GMT

I tend to get dragged off of all the time. I'm a pretty big guy (6'4"), so I move a lot of water. When people are directly behind me, they talk about "body surfing". When I was in high school, after a long course race (1500 I think), the swimmer two lanes over thanked me for the drag. He positioned himself on the lane line, and about 10 feet back, and felt the boost. -Rick I think if she was drafting (I don't think she was) that would be called race strategy.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 14:08:59 GMT

George, I assume the event was sanctioned, however to clear up what appears to be a misconception, FINA does not as a rule ban swimmers who compete in non-sanctioned events. In the USA a majority of USA Swimming and USMS members who compete in events have at one time or another participated in a non-sanctioned event (YMCA, Rec, Senior Games, AAU, …) and to my knowledge none have been baned for their participation. It may be different in Canada. FINA rule GR 4 seems pretty explicit, you seem to be suggesting that FINA ignores its own rules, at least when it comes to the US, except they did say they would apply it to US swimmers in the LatyCar incident. Presuming that the organizations you list are not affiliated with FINA why doesn't GR 4 apply? I personally believe that masters should be explicitly exempt from GR 4, as they seem to be in practice in the US. As a general principle I don't believe that organizations or countries should have draconian laws that are selectively enforced. It is an offense against the principle of equality before the law. On the other hand, FINA should have mechanisms to ensure that its members don't give sanctions to events with improper names, for example a sanction should not be given to an event calling itself the Masters World Championships of Swimming if that's not what it is. That, in my mind is the principle on which LatyCar went wrong.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:51:46 GMT

I am sure it is there but I'm having difficulty finding it, is there a rule that says men and women can't swim in the same heat? I.e. that you are not allowed to run a heat with both men and women. That would bear on the current question. The debate is not whether LL will get her record, it is whether she should have got the record and if not what implicit rule was or should have been in place to prevent it. FINA undoubtedly has the final say, the question is whether they have created a new rule which is not there in the written rules and not based on a previous precedent. I don't believe the current rules explicitly state the swim does not count, for that to be supportable one needs to read "The first swimmer in a relay may apply for a World Record." as "The first swimmer in a relay event contested at World Championships may apply for a World Record". I would not support that rule. Another possible rule would be "Men and women may not compete in the same heat." That is an interesting idea, I don't know.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:18:58 GMT

Poolrat - you are right the FINA decision stll stands. We can banter on but it will not change.:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Rob Copeland — Tue, 01 May 2007 12:58:57 GMT

why didn't the japanese breastroker get DQ'd after video clearly showed the fly kick?Quite simply, because the officials with jurisdiction (Inspector of Turns and Judge of Strokes) to call the infraction did not see any infraction and video instant replay is not an approved officiating tool. At the meet, a FINA official was quoted in the Aussie press, telling Swimming Australia's head person to file for ratificiation, as the FINA official did not see any reason why the record wouldn't be ratified.Apparently the quoted FINA official at the meet was not the person who determines what will be accepted as a World record. Heck, if they would have asked me, I’d have said yes submit the ratification paperwork, but I don’t think FINA would have ratified the record just because I said submit the paperwork…. Or maybe they would; I’ll give it a try.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

knelson — Tue, 01 May 2007 12:58:05 GMT

If the rules are so dang important, why didn't the japanese breastroker get DQ'd after video clearly showed the fly kick? And why didn't FINA tell the swimming nations that the rule wouldn't be changed? Instead of enforcing the rule, they changed it so they didn't have to enforce it. Because the turn judges need to make that call in real time. There's no provision for making rulings based on video after the race is over. I think the main reason for the rule change was that the dolphin kick was just too hard to judge. Sometimes the judges saw it, other times they didn't. A rule that can't be judged consistently is worthless.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 11:35:49 GMT

Wow, all of this brings me right back into the Twilight Zone (is it a valid record, interpretations, drafting (poof on that one cause it's hard to do anyway in a pool with lane lines)). At least she's got video to prove she swam it in the time she swam it in. My congrats go to Libby.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Rob Copeland — Tue, 01 May 2007 11:20:37 GMT

Presuming that the organizations you list are not affiliated with FINA why doesn't GR 4 apply?I suggest you contact Cornel Marculescu – FINA Executive Director and Rich Foster – President of United States Aquatic Sports (USAS) if you are interested in an answer to this question. And please keep us posted as to what they say. One other note: YMCA is an affiliate member of USA-Swimming, which is a member of USAS, which is a member of FINA. I don’t know the affiliate status of the other organizations I listed. And my apologies for this digression to those discussing Libby Lenton’s phenomenal swim.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

dorothyrde — Tue, 01 May 2007 11:10:10 GMT

I think if she was drafting (I don't think she was) that would be called race strategy. I actually agree with this George. Swimmers learn to draft very early on. I watched it all the time at age group meets, especially at UIPUI's more elite meets. I watched your video and I DO think she got a draft the first 50, and definately did not on the last 50. But not giving it to her because of a draft would be wrong. They state it is because the event is not an event that counts toward world records. I think that should have been more clear before the event was swum so all participating were aware of it. Then this would not be a discussion. Libby would be jazzed to have gone that fast, but known it did not count. And since folks say she took this well, maybe she DID know.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

osterber — Tue, 01 May 2007 09:36:41 GMT

My question is how many of you have drafted off a nother swimmer in a swimming pool when the wave buster lane ropes are in??? I tend to get dragged off of all the time. I'm a pretty big guy (6'4"), so I move a lot of water. When people are directly behind me, they talk about "body surfing". When I was in high school, after a long course race (1500 I think), the swimmer two lanes over thanked me for the drag. He positioned himself on the lane line, and about 10 feet back, and felt the boost. -Rick

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

poolraat — Tue, 01 May 2007 09:10:55 GMT

:dedhorse: :dedhorse:

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 08:28:21 GMT

I think the main reason for the rule change was that the dolphin kick was just too hard to judge. Sometimes the judges saw it, other times they didn't. A rule that can't be judged consistently is worthless. Unfortunately, it turns out that if a judge can't see whether one dolphin kick occurred they also can't see whether one or two dolphin kicks occurred, so we all got to watch swimmers at worlds doing multiple dolphin kicks.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

aquaFeisty — Tue, 01 May 2007 07:44:27 GMT

I thought open water was sometimes fastest? Ie., that would be a strategy to lead off your relay with your fastest person. Or, I thought that open water and the lack of turbulence is why some people question the validity of Popov's time trial 50m free, where no one was directly next to him? So how can it be argued both ways? I would think that the turbulence coming off Phelps, in addition to providing a draft, would have possibly hindered Libby, especially near the wall. Either way, I hope she does that time again. She is smokin' fast!

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

dorothyrde — Tue, 01 May 2007 07:38:59 GMT

One of the reasons I keep bringing up the rules is because when you become an official, the testing is quite extensive on certain issues. For Admin, I had to answer quite a few questions on valid events for LSC, National and World records even though I will likely never work an event that I have to be concerned about this. I know things are spelled out in USA rules, and the people on site running the meet should know the rules, and should know BEFORE the race that no world records were being contended.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Tue, 01 May 2007 06:51:34 GMT

To all those on the nay side, why??? I said nay because I feel FINA may have had a rationale behind their rule, and I believe it could have had something to do with a perceived unfair advantage women may gain by attempting to draft off men. Also because of what I saw and heard on the DVR recording. :2cents:

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

dorothyrde — Tue, 01 May 2007 01:20:14 GMT

I was at a YMCA district meeting Saturday. In the room was a mix of coaches, officials, parent volunteers, many of whom have been with Y swimming for a long, long time. I read the rules for meets really carefully because I set up all of ours, and help the coach get entries out. I read the by-laws of the differenting sanctioning entities as well. There was a blanket statement made about how the age groups at champs should be set up by one of the long time coaches. Others all murmured their agreements. 3 people in the room spoke up that they were wrong, myself, the coach who has hosted the district champs, and the district chair. These people all argued that we were wrong until the district chair pulled the by-laws up and showed them. I point this out because there were officials who worked our championship meets in there that did not know the rules. So I can believe there were officials on the deck here that did not know the FINA rules. Should they, heck yes, but in case they don't you better hope the meet ref and admin ref do.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:52:52 GMT

I seem to remember that we even have some men (who have sex changes swim against the women) and can hold a women's record.

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:50:28 GMT

Yes, you do not exist anymore....you have been assimilated!!!!:rofl:

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:48:41 GMT

So those of us who voted "no" are in some synthetic world then?

RE: Poll: should Libby Lenton have the record

Former Member — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:45:47 GMT

My oh my - the poll has reversed to what the real world thinks.