Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:23:44 GMT

Having published a few articles on breaststroke, including starts and turns, I sometimes get letters and emails from former swimmers. These breaststrokers include US short course college and USS record holders from the last 30 years. Many have commented on trying some of the ideas I put to paper. Many have mentioned not breathing during some very important races, usually at the end of the 100. Many have also experimented with no pulldown during breaststroke, and they tell me it can be faster. There is a common thread amoung many of the great breaststrokers I have met and talked with, and well as corresponded with. They have experimented with many different styles of pulls, kicks, turns and pulldowns, eventually arriving with what worked best for them. Many are beyond students of the stroke, they have their PhD's in breaststroke. I have also discussed the no pulldown with many officials from past Olympics, USS Nationals etc., and they all said they would disqualify someone for no pulldown. So you may get away with it once, but try it when it counts like nationals, and see what happens. I am always chummy with the officials, telling them what a great job they are doing, getting them a drink etc. In turn they talk to me about the rules. One year my shoulder hurt so bad I did not want to do a butterfly stroke during the 100 IM. So I asked, what if I dove in, dolphined for 14.5 yards, came up and continued dolphin kick on the surface. They said it was legal, so that is exactly what I did.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:50:48 GMT

Many have also experimented with no pulldown during breaststroke, and they tell me it can be faster. I have also discussed the no pulldown with many officials from past Olympics, USS Nationals etc., and they all said they would disqualify someone for no pulldown. So you may get away with it once, but try it when it counts like nationals, and see what happens. I routinely use no pulldown on the turns, especially at high altitude or in the 400 IM, where oxygen is at a premium. I don't know if it is faster but it certainly is more comfortable and leads to the resumption of better quality stroke sooner. That factor is more important to me than an extra yard or two (over the course of the race) under the water because there is no break or roughness in the swim cycle while I try to regain breath control. I have NEVER been disqualified and always swim BR at nationals. -- mel

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:37:35 GMT

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:41:57 GMT

I think the word deceleration has to be thought in more of a counterintuitive manner. The term deceleration is in reference to your fastest swimming speed and when that speed is reached a pullout is necessary.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:35:22 GMT

I agree with Knelson. Look up the word “may” in any dictionary. In mine, it is defined as “…used to indicate possibility”, in other words, you have to option to do so, if you choose. If a pull down was mandatory then “must” or “shall”, would have been written in the rules. Those words are not used because that was not the intent of the rule. Unless the breaststroke-breakout rules are stated differently for the Olympic and USS, then those officials who would DQ you for not taking a pull down are wrong.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

poolraat — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:04:39 GMT

I have also discussed the no pulldown with many officials from past Olympics, USS Nationals etc., and they all said they would disqualify someone for no pulldown. So you may get away with it once, but try it when it counts like nationals, and see what happens. I don't agree with this. As Kirk and Ian has said the key word is may. Granted, I am not certified to the level of the officials at national and international meets, but my interpetation of the rule is that for the first stroke after the start or turn, it doesn't matter if it is a full pulldown or a regular *** stroke as long as it is followed by a kick. 101.2. BREASTSTROKE 101.2.1—Start The forward start shall be used. 101.2.2—Stroke ....Throughout the race the stroke cycle must be one arm stroke and one leg kick in that order. ..... The hands shall not be brought back beyond the hip line, except during the first stroke after the start and each turn......... After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:38:37 GMT

In other words do the pull when you decelerate to below your (surface) swimming speed. Now that makes sense. I think the problem is knowing what that speed is. About the underwater pullout requirement. From my reading of the rules you shouldn't need to take one. However, you definitely do need to start with an arm pull. If you come to surface and kick first, or kick without pulling while underwater, you should be DQed.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 05:34:47 GMT

okay I got the idea of the shrug to narrow your shoulders, how the heck do I narrow my hips.....:wiggle: LOL sorry the image was just too strong, wonder if there are any women out there who thought the same thing, lots of good info in this thread that I will be working on tomorrow morning.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

TRYM_Swimmer — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:07:57 GMT

Shrugging the shoulders on the pulldown really increases streamlining and is essential...... Thank you, Allen! I tried the shoulder shrug at workout today, and it really felt like I got a surge in my glide. Can't wait to try it in a meet. Old Dog always ready to learn New Tricks!

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:53:49 GMT

The beginning of a pullout starts when decelearation begins. As you push-off the wall your moment of deceleration will be different due to leg strength and how effecient your streamlined position is, but the key to starting the pullout is the moment you begin to slow down (even a hair). So, starts the outward sweep when you feel like you're slowing down. Good luck

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

poolraat — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:53:09 GMT

Doing a pushoff,dolphin kick,and then breaking the surface,would,I believe be illegal under the USMS interpretation of the FINA rules.Am I right on that? I believe that is correct. The interpretation of the rule is that the dolphin kick must occur during or after the pulldown. If it is done prior to the pulldown than that is an infraction of the rules and will result in a DQ. This isn't stated specifically in the rule book but it is how it is being enforced (for now).

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Allen Stark — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:30:59 GMT

I experimented with taking a regular breaststroke stroke underwater instead of a pull down. While it seemed faster in workout,it wasn't as fast in race conditions(possibly related being able to glide further,faster shaved and tapered.) Yes the shrug is at the end of the pull down. Doing a pushoff,dolphin kick,and then breaking the surface,would,I believe be illegal under the USMS interpretation of the FINA rules.Am I right on that?

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

TRYM_Swimmer — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:35:04 GMT

But for the 50 and even 25 sprints, many great breaststrokers would like to get rid of the pulldown completely... Wayne or Allen (or anyone), have you ever tried to do a 50 without a pullout and compared the time? I have gone to a faster pullout for my 50 and had good results the last meet, but I can't imagine coming right up, especially on the start. And I don't even do the dolphin kick that's allowed. I would think that you would have to do an awfully shallow dive to make it work. Maybe the turn would be OK. When I see breaststrokers pop up without a pullout, it always seems slower.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:23:09 GMT

He said the rules in a round about way say you have to do the pull down. I think he needs to reread the rules because there's nothing "roundabout" about it. You can choose to do a pullout. There is definitely no requirement to do so. The FINA rules, and presumably USA Swimming, too, phrase it the same way ("after the start and each turn, the swimmer may..."). If is definitely optional.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

smontanaro — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:03:48 GMT

Shrugging the shoulders on the pulldown really increases streamlining and is essential. This is during the pulldown or as your arms reach the end of travel? Thx, Skip

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:48:37 GMT

You guys are killin' me.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I'm glad I'm just an engineer and not a breaststroker. So are we... I've seen your video! LMAO

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:42:16 GMT

OK, true. You decelerate as soon as you leave the blocks, too. However since water is ~1,000 times denser than air your deceleration through the air can be considered negligible. :) hmm it's possible you maybe even accelrate via the effects of gravity...

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 06:27:53 GMT

The scientist in me is compelled to point out you start decelerating the moment your toes leave the wall. The wiseass nit-picker in me is compelled to point out that my toes sometimes leave the block too and not just the wall. :rofl:

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

poolraat — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:47:09 GMT

You guys are killin' me.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I'm glad I'm just an engineer and not a breaststroker.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:52:40 GMT

To continue nitpicking, as soon as you leave the blocks, you decelerate in the horizontal (x) axis , and accelerate due to gravity in the vertical axis, which is pretty meaningless in the context of a breaststroke pull out. ;) Right, and since I define the z axis as vertically up, the acceleration due to gravity is also really a deceleration in the z direction!

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

beluga — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:53:04 GMT

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:37:34 GMT

OK, true. You decelerate as soon as you leave the blocks, too. However since water is ~1,000 times denser than air your deceleration through the air can be considered negligible. :)

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

knelson — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:23:42 GMT

The beginning of a pullout starts when decelearation begins. The scientist in me is compelled to point out you start decelerating the moment your toes leave the wall.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

dorothyrde — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:51:57 GMT

Wayne or Allen (or anyone), have you ever tried to do a 50 without a pullout and compared the time? I have gone to a faster pullout for my 50 and had good results the last meet, but I can't imagine coming right up, especially on the start. And I don't even do the dolphin kick that's allowed. I would think that you would have to do an awfully shallow dive to make it work. Maybe the turn would be OK. When I see breaststrokers pop up without a pullout, it always seems slower. My observations of watching the kids is the pullout is faster. However, the only ones not doing it are usually the less skilled swimmers. It would be nice to see some of our elite breaststrokes race, one doing pullout, the other not. We have a couple of 13 year old girls who both swim 1:10, so are evenly matched. That would be a good experiment.

RE: Breaststroke Turn Dilemma

Former Member — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:47:36 GMT

Correct, so just turning and starting your stroke should not get you DQ'd, which is why I asked how official would DQ a person as Wayne said. He said the rules in a round about way say you have to do the pull down. They wont DQ you. At zones I stopped at the wall on turn 6 of my 200 thinking it was done...then turned and began swimming like fury without pushing off underwater. No DQ...just great comedy for the 6 people who had been rooting me on up and down that lane. LOL