technique over power in distance events?

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:58:28 GMT

I just want to say at first that I am not an expert. What I know was learned from my own training, the scientific approach of my coach, and what I read in Maglischo's book. For Mausy - the reason rtodd is swimming on 1:50 instead of 2:00 is that his aerobic threshold test (his 1000 swim) predicts that a 1:49 is the correct interval to use if he wants to improve his aerobic fitness. rtodd can already do 10x100 on 2:00 and he can do these with over 25 seconds rest. That is too much rest for an aerobic threshold set. For asgard - I suggest you not change your interval time until you can do the entire set with flip turns. Changing to open turns is not exactly cheating but they require much less energy than flip turns. So you haven't really done that set yet. :( I don't know about a known correlation between a 100 race time and repeats on 10 x 100. I think we expect that a person who swims a fast 100 will repeat them in practice fast too - but a "pure" sprinter might struggle with a longer aerobic threshold set vs. someone who is a 500 swimmer. Aerobic threshold sets are only one portion of a training program. You should also do lactic threshold sets, VO2max sets, and lactic production (sprints) to have a complete training program. Lactic threshold sets are similar to an aerobic threshold set in repeat distance - but you will swim faster. A lactic threshold set of 100s might be 5 x 100 on 1:45. You might do that twice with a recovery set between. Instead of swimming 1:35s on these sets you'd swim 1:30 or 1:25. Your muscles will ache and you will feel lactic build up. You are trying to train your body to push the threshold higher before lactic buildup occurs. A VO2max set is very hard but short. 3 x 100 on 1:40 or even 1:35 repeated with an easy recovery 200 between. VO2max will trash your cardiovascular capability. When you are ready to shorten the interval - you might go 8 x 100 instead of 10 x 100 at first to ease the transition to the shorter interval. Work back up to 10 x 100 over two or three weeks.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:47:23 GMT

I am in similar shoes though I don't consider myself a sprinter nowadays. I did a trial time for 500 a couple of months ago and my time was 8:02. I like IM's and freestyle is actually my weak stroke. I'd like to improve my freestyle so some day I can compete 500 or 1650. Today I was trying these 10x100 repeats as suggested with 1:50 intervals. I started the first one 1:33 and dropped to 1:35 by the second, then holding 1:37-1:38 for the next eight (though I had to change from flip turn to open turn starting the 7th). My question is where should I go here? I'd love to drop my interval to 1:45 or 1:40 but I don't think I can swim that fast to hold the 100's time. How do I improve my 100 and 200 time? BTW, is there a correlation between the fastest 100 time and the 10x100 repeat interval time?

RE: technique over power in distance events?

rtodd — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:51:22 GMT

I'd like to hear from the experts too on this. I'm guessing that they will say try the 1:45. Then once you can do that, go to 1:40....etc. It does not paint a pretty picture. This is tough stuff.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:20:27 GMT

I would highly recommend the 10x100 on 2:00 trying to hold your pace. I am a distance swimmer and I use this set when I am training for the 1000 or the 1650. I have no motivation to do it by myself. I can usually convince my brother or my mom to sit at the end of the lane and time and record my splits. I start about two months from my scheduled race and do this set once a week. I have a record of my times and can see improvment and such. Find someone to take 45 min. and time you and then tell you the time after every 100. Great set and it is really important to know what your pace feels like

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:00:09 GMT

I wish I read your post before my workout. It would have motivated me to finish. Trying to go on 1:50, the first was a 1:30, the second 1:35, then I settled in at 1:40 for the next four. I had to take two minutes recovery, then I did the last four at 1:40. I couldn't go 10 in a row but I think I can do it if I keep trying. I can already tell that these workouts force me to really work on technique. I am finding that when I swim this tired, I am forced to pay attention to technique out of desperation and survival to make the interval. I just wasn't getting that with the longer rest. Thanks for the workout advice. I will be swimming the 50,100,200 and 500 in two weeks. Will post the times, good or bad. Hey rtodd - good job. I figured it would hurt. The pacing is very important on these sets so your stroke doesn't break down. You did go too fast on the first two and cooked yourself a bit. Next time start at 1:40 and focus on pace and completing the set without your stroke going to pieces. You'll be tired but satisfied you made it.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:33:05 GMT

I'll try it next week. I will go on 1:50 and try to come in at 1:35 and see how it goes. I think you can do it. It will be a good bit harder and you'll probably feel it around the 4th or 5th one. Make up your mind a head of time that you will not give up. You can make 10 of them. Be sure not to blow it on the first two or three.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

rtodd — Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:13:44 GMT

RE: technique over power in distance events?

rtodd — Sat, 14 Apr 2007 04:42:08 GMT

I'll try it next week. I will go on 1:50 and try to come in at 1:35 and see how it goes.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:52:25 GMT

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:48:56 GMT

I made most of my transition from outright sprinter towards middle distance (freestyle) by myself and it was this funny little paceclock that fastened on the outside of my goggles (by suction) facing in (in corner of lens) that finally allowed me to really know what pace I was keeping for a set, and fine tune it up and down. I used to have one of those too. Eventually it flooded/battery died and it stared losing suction. Great for when you are in a facility that doesn't have a paceclock that you can sneak a peek at especially for splits (what I call "alligator flipturns" with eyes above waterline). I wear a wristwatch but it takes a few seconds to focus in on the time, not usable for splits. The 15" paceclock I bought is OK (about $150) but it needs some minor repairs right now and it's not very convenient to carry around with all my other stuff. I keep losing count of repeats/lengths without the devices. Back on topic, it does sound like work on pacing will help your longer events.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:59:03 GMT

So you were coming in on 1:30 and repeating every 2 minutes? In other words swimming a 100 Free every 2 minutes but actually completing the swim in 1:30, thereby affording yourself 30 seconds of rest each time. I would advise you not to worry about your actual swim time. Swim at a comfortable pace...not a sprint but not an exaggerated slow stroke either. Choose an interval that you can handle and slowly work on decreasing your interval time. For instance, lets say that you can swim a 10 x 100 on 2:00. After doing this for a week or so try taking 5 seconds off of that interval time. Now you would be swimming a 100 every 1:55 as opposed to every 2:00. rtodd said he has done 10 x 100 on 2:00 before and holding 1:30 (30 secs rest). Not today but we all have off days! rtodd - I suggest you try the 1:50, and ease up a bit. You will probably not be able to do 10 @ 1:30 with 10 secs less rest per 100. Shoot for the first few around 1:35-1:40. See how the first five feel and go from there. If you can hold 1:35 for 10 100s on 1:50 you're doing pretty well. Tell us how it goes the next time.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:47:56 GMT

I did a 10x100 today and struggled. I started at 1:30 and fell off to 1:40 by the tenth on a 2 min interval. Just didn't have it...long week. Getting back to this T20 thing. I will try the 1:50 interval and see what happens. What should I try to come in at? should I try to hold 1:30 to start? 1:40? 1:45? So you were coming in on 1:30 and repeating every 2 minutes? In other words swimming a 100 Free every 2 minutes but actually completing the swim in 1:30, thereby affording yourself 30 seconds of rest each time. I would advise you not to worry about your actual swim time. Swim at a comfortable pace...not a sprint but not an exaggerated slow stroke either. Choose an interval that you can handle and slowly work on decreasing your interval time. For instance, lets say that you can swim a 10 x 100 on 2:00. After doing this for a week or so try taking 5 seconds off of that interval time. Now you would be swimming a 100 every 1:55 as opposed to every 2:00.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:20:48 GMT

This is good advice. A fairly recent post here provides good info on the T30 test and how to use it. forums.usms.org/showthread.php I believe Maglischo says in his book that there is really very little difference between a T20 and and a T30. Some even suggest a T10 is enough. I think rtodd's 1000 swim might good enough. He swam a 1000 in 18:10. If it was a best effort that is a 1:49 interval for the 100. That suggests to improve his aerobic threshold he should swim repeat 100s in practice on a 1:50 interval. In six months he might be able to drop that five seconds, etc. When I first read this I thought you were talking about his taking 5 seconds off his 1000 free time; now I realize you are speaking about rtodd's 100 repeat times. But even with that, I think because he is already swimming a 1:03 100 free, he is very capable of doing a 1:35 interval or less. Even if he were to repeat hundreds by swimming them in 1:20; that gives him 15 seconds rest. Not sure if he can hold 10 of them, but I'll bet you he could 6. There is no doubt that by swimming repeat 100s on a challenging interval, rtodd will be pulling down a 16 minute 1000 in 6 months, or better.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

rtodd — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 06:28:40 GMT

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:48:10 GMT

Six months to go from 10 x 100 on 1:50 to 1:45? Really? Well...maybe? We know rtodd has good speed from his 50 and 100 times. He hasn't trained like this yet. So I figured he might be able to improve fairly quickly initially. But maybe not. It did take me about a year to drop 5 secs on my 100 repeats. Maybe he stays at 1:50 and the times just get faster per 100 until he can take 5 secs off the interval.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:37:49 GMT

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:33:36 GMT

I have read that a good piece of data to have is your aerobic/anaerobic threshold pace, i.e. the pace that you can swim continuously (aerobically). This can be determined with a T20 or T30 swim. To be accurate you should avoid factoring in any end of swim sprints. Your distance swims will basically be at your threshold pace with some time taken off for a faster pace at the start and end. To improve your distance time you want to work on improving your aerobic capacity and, through technique improvements, the pace that you can swim at a given aerobic capacity. Trying to swim above your threshold pace, by definition will eventually result in deterioration of either technique or speed. This is good advice. A fairly recent post here provides good info on the T30 test and how to use it. forums.usms.org/showthread.php I believe Maglischo says in his book that there is really very little difference between a T20 and and a T30. Some even suggest a T10 is enough. I think rtodd's 1000 swim might good enough. He swam a 1000 in 18:10. If it was a best effort that is a 1:49 interval for the 100. That suggests to improve his aerobic threshold he should swim repeat 100s in practice on a 1:50 interval. In six months he might be able to drop that five seconds, etc.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:22:05 GMT

And Hofffman, small world your actually being on Roatan for the day via cruise ship. Did you come to West End or did you go to West Bay? I was part of a large family group. We split up into two groups - I was part of the deep sea fishing group and the rest went to a beach to snorkel and hang out all day. I believe we were at West End. No matter where we were - it was beautiful.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:47:50 GMT

I am in the same predicament. I did a workout early last week: long warm-up and workout then a timed 500m (8:50) a 4 minute rest and a timed 500m (8:36), then a warm in the combined time of the 500s and swam 950 in in 17:26! I have found in my sprints that my poor form creates more problems than strength--according to my coach technique not strength or endurance is my problem. Longer swims I can remind myself to use "good" form and stay within my swim ability so I an more efficient and relaxed. To me this all makes sense. I need to know how it fix it so my fast efforts don't fall apart which should make my times longed swims even better (relatively). Bill, controlled fast swimming is the objective here. Find out by swimming a lot of repeat 25s and repeat 50s and even repeat 100s when your stroke starts to fall apart. Once that is figured out, you will know where in the stamina portion of swimming that happens and it will help you to determine how lacking or not you are in the conditioning aspect. And it also helps you to get used to controlled sprinting and what it feels like. And let's say for example's sake your swimming on a fast hundred starts getting a bit sloppy at the 75. At that time on the next one you will know it is coming up and you will pay more attention to trying to swim with more technique at that 75 until the finish. When I start getting fatigued, I have to remind myself to maintain technique above all else. I don't really slow down my effort, I am just aware I need to better control it. donna

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:27:04 GMT

rtodd-Hofffam is giving you really good advice here. If you want to swim a respectable 500, you must be able to hold 100s and 200s split wise closer together. The way to do this is the interval work he is talking about. Your 50 and 100 times are pretty darn good; you just need to work toward finding that "race pace" to back them all up. And interval work with little rest is crucial to achieving this. Yes, it can be quite the price to pay when actually doing it, but the results can be magnificent. One thing I always did when I found the 200 free to be my favorite after my backstroke career ended was this: lots of 50 repeats with little rest and trying not to allow myself to drop off more than 2 seconds. When I did, I would rest 3 minutes and start the 50 sets again. And once I got my 50s all in a row so to speak, I would spend time feeling how they felt. Then I could apply these to the 200. The same applied for my training for the 800m free at USMS Long Course Natls in 1995 in Oregon. I did piles of 400 repeats trying to keep them close together. And lots of 50s at race pace. And magical things can happen such as negative-splitting. I got to experience this and it was a power swim. One that has stayed in my memories ever since. I won't bore you anymore, I just sometimes get over-excited in my descriptions when I try to offer advice. And Hofffman, small world your actually being on Roatan for the day via cruise ship. Did you come to West End or did you go to West Bay? The best to you rtodd, donna

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:04:29 GMT

rtodd - I think the dropoff issue is best measured by the 100 splits. If I can swim a 55 100, then my 200 splits would average 1:03. I think i can hold 1:10 for a 500 but don't know for sure. I swim with a friend who is a better distance guy and he goes 5:45 in the 500, 2:04 in the 200, and 56 in the 100. On your workouts - I think you should try to reduce the rest in your repeats. Instead of 10x100 on 2:00, try 1:50. You may not be able to hold 1:30 any more but that's OK. By the way - the sets you are doing are good lactate threshold sets. These sets have more rest but you swim faster. Example aerobic threshold sets for you: 10 x 100 @ 1:50 (target 1:35) 5 x 200 @ 3:30 20 x 50 @ 1:00 or even :50 (no more than 10 secs rest) You might do aerobic threshold once or twice a week. Do some lactate threshold once a week. Follow a hard day with an easier day. If you can - once a week you might go "long" - up your distance to 3000 yds. But swim easier like 4 x 500 on 9:30 or a comfortable interval. These sets should be all about smooth stroke, good technique, and pacing.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:28:23 GMT

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:40:37 GMT

Technique and conditioning obviously will have a pivotal role in improving your times for the longer distances, but pacing will be the skill that you should learn to make a big breakthrough. It is a definite handicap not being coached or swimming with a group 'cause ordinarily you should absorb some through example and prodding. However, that said, I made most of my transition from outright sprinter towards middle distance (freestyle) by myself and it was this funny little paceclock that fastened on the outside of my goggles (by suction) facing in (in corner of lens) that finally allowed me to really know what pace I was keeping for a set, and fine tune it up and down. By the time the battery died (it is a sealed unit) I had the skill down, didn't need it anymore and it reflected racewise. I did look pretty much look like a goof with this thing barnacled to my goggles, but hey, whatever it takes...

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:54:45 GMT

At the time when my 200y free best time was same as yours, these were my other times. I was about 36 years old and a couple of years into Masters after a long layoff and backslide. 50-:32.5 100-1:10 200-2:30 500-6:37 So your times do seem to show a disconnect; mine show that I have no ability to sprint. I did a lot of short-rest training such as 10x100 free on 1:30 and I would hold 1:21-1:25. They are slow times but I sure wish I could do that now; that's another topic.

RE: technique over power in distance events?

Former Member — Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:46:10 GMT

I have one more comment and that is: not everyone is a distance swimmer, nor is everyone a sprinter. You have to figure out which distances best suit you. In my very competitive swimming days, I was ONLY a 50,100,200 backstroke person with an occasional 400 IM. I never swam any freestyle except on a relay. Now, I am a distance freestyle swimmer only and to me, anything over 6 miles is distance. I do enjoy the occasional 1500m swim in a triathlon, but that's almost too short of a distance now. And for me, the 500 and 1000 would be like a sprint. But I do believe that if a swimmer has a relatively quick 50 time, they can work toward endurance/stamina by doing interval sets and then swim some pretty darn fast 200s, 500s, 1000s. Nothing any more rewarding than lowering your times!! Hofman's reply made some good points about all of this, too. Cheers, Donna You are absolutely correct - everyone here probably has a natural distance that is their sweet spot. And it may be a different distance or stroke as a Masters swimmer than when they were in high school. I NEVER raced breaststroke in my younger days. Now for some reason I'm a pretty good breaststroker. I was a 100-200 guy. Now I'm a 50-100 guy. I can't do distance now because my 25 years off cost me too much fitness and I'm not willing to put in the work to get good at it! Two things are the same - I still swim IM and fly. BTW - I was in Roatan recently for a day on a cruise. Way beautiful place!