expected time drop with a wetsuit

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:24:28 GMT

In my case about :10 or so per 100 improvement, with a sleeveless wetsuit. This is based on comparing my open water times with a wetsuit with times of other people without westuits, and comparing 1500/1650 pool times with the same people.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:11:13 GMT

Personally, I like to stay warm. I usually don an Aqua Skin WT80 top to go swimming in the height of summer outdoors and in my usual indoor heated pools anytime. Maybe if I learn to swim better and can knock out more distance without stopping I'll warm up. I guess AquaSkin would be considered a wetsuit. It is part Lycra and part Lycra-Neoprene blend. www.aquasphereswim.com/.../aqua_skin_wt80.html

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:51:33 GMT

If you can't swim don't go near the water and you will not drown.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:46:37 GMT

As far as I am aware, wetsuits are banned in every USMS open water event (you can wear one, but you will be disqualified). So fear not people, if you enter a USMS event, you won't have to face any "aided" swimmers. I believe the distinction here is between "swim only" events and triathlons. Yes, there are a few swim only open water events that allow wetsuits. My experience is that most "real swimmers" choose not to wear the wetsuit at these races. Those who wear them are generally triathletes who tend not to be in the running for top finishes. At triathlons, however, wetsuits are prevelant. But they are illegal if the water temp is above 78. There are four things to keep in mind regarding triathletes: 1) swimming is generally their weakest discipline (this is a generality, and based on my perspective as a swimmer first/triathlete second). 2) triathletes hate cold water. Most triathletes lack much body fat. Even 76 degree water chills them quickly. 3) A triathlon is more than a just the swim. An opportunity to conserve a little energy in the swim helps later when you are trying to get through the bike and run. And 4) Triathlon race directors fear the swim with all of their being. Disaster can happen quickly during the swim. The absolute last thing a race director wants is a fatality. A weak swimmer can go down in a split second. A wetsuit at least gives them a chance of survival - or being found easily. So , lighten up about the wetsuits guys. They are not a crutch. They simply make you go faster. Isn't that the reason fastskins are more popular than nylon suits. Isn't that the reason people shave at big meets? Wearing a wetsuit doesn't mean I get to swim easily. I swim just as hard AND get a faster time.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:19:48 GMT

I guess I must not be a serious swimmer, since the only times I have raced in a wetsuit, I did it for speed not warmth. However by my estimation, in those races, a 30 second improvement (because of the wet suit) was worth a couple of grand in prize money. So I’ll take the money and live with being called a subpar doggy paddling novice. Personally, I would prefer to not use a wetsuit for speed OR warmth (provided the water temp is over about 47 degrees) , but if wearing wetsuits brings more people into the sport, then I’m all for having wetsuit divisions in races. Unless there is money at stake.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:50:40 GMT

Many swimmers may never finish a swim if they did not wear a wet suit. Depending on ability it could be up to a 30% or more faster. These things make some bad swimmers into pretty good swimmers. They should be barred from any race.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:32:51 GMT

They are not a crutch. They simply make you go faster. Dang it! Here I was thinking they were to help you stay warm in colder water. If they are only designed to make you go faster then how are they not a crutch?

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Frank Thompson — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:03:50 GMT

rtodd: I think there is a big difference in the rules for the sport of triathlon and for swimming. Since the triathlon is a 3 sport race and the swimming portion in my opinion was not as important as the other 2 disciplines, they allowed for the use of a wetsuite in the early stages of the sport. As the popularity grew, some open water swims allowed for a separate wetsuit division to attract triathletes. I have never heard of a Professional Open Water race allowing for wetsuits but maybe they have backed off the rules when the tempertures are extreme and dangerous. FINA has gotten involved with Open Water swimming in about the last 20 years and like George Park said Professional rules long ago were different that Amateur rules. Both organizations representing both agree and have been consistent in that they see that open water swimming is an endurance sport that pits a lone swimmer against all that a body of water can offer. In the history of Open Water and Marathon swimming these organizations refuse to allow the use of a wetsuit. In the history of mankind, swimmers were forced to swim in whatever conditions that were offered. To have swimmers permitted to where a wetsuit would provide extra buoyancy and this can lead to artifically increased speed and apparent endurance of the swimmer wearing the suit. It also can protect you from being cold and also be a shield for jelly fish stings. Even if the water is beyond humanly cold, these organizations will refuse to monitor or recognize swims involving the use of wetsuits. That is why people like Lynn Cox and Lewis Gordon Pugh do there swims without wetsuits because they want to honor history and swim the way swimmers of the past had swam before them, meaning you swim in all and any kind of conditions and in a swim costume that has not changed at all in the history of Open Water swimming. American swimmer Ted Erikson, who swam the second two-two way crossing of the English Channel in 1965, said that wearing a wetsuit in a marathon swim is like someone completing the Tour de France on a moped. So in Open Water swimming there is a difference to what the wetsuit provides to the swimmer. In the triathlon culture, its been part of the rules and strategy to the point where you train and compete with the wetsuits and if you don't your at a competitive disadvantage. Plus it makes up for not having or lacking the swimming skill that would be increased by not being allowed to have one.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:10:42 GMT

To serious swimmers it does, provided not used for it's intended purpose - warmth. By god, if some dude can swim at the North (or was it South) Pole without a suit, then even a subpar doggy paddling novice swimmer can make it a few yards in an 77 degree lake without one. Are you saying I am not a serious swimmer?

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:58:03 GMT

And 4) Triathlon race directors fear the swim with all of their being. Disaster can happen quickly during the swim. The absolute last thing a race director wants is a fatality. A weak swimmer can go down in a split second. A wetsuit at least gives them a chance of survival - or being found easily. In full disclosure I'm as anti-wetsuit as one gets. If you want stay warm, buy a boat with a heater. As cold water is just part of the adventure and the training. That being said Ruffwater is right plus the reality is without the wetsuit, Triathlon would not be the participant sport that it is today. I believe most triathlon race directors go out of there way to find coldest part of the lake to take the water temperature, they want to avoid at all costs having to ban wetsuits. Not only to avoid a drowning but to make sure the race is as swim friendly as possible. Don't want get a reputation that causes entries and therefore race fee revenue to drop.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:55:28 GMT

If the water is dead calm, I may go with the fast skin. You don't object to that do you? or does it have to be a jammer? I have no objection to wearing a swim suit while swimming. I do, however, object to wearing a wetsuit when there is zero need to wear one, other that for it's buoyancy edge. A wet suit is (or was) intended to be worn for cool to cold water conditions. Apparently now it is worn as an aid. This is why most real swimmers I know will not wear a wetsuit in OW events, preferring instead to let their swimming do the talking. I believe wetsuits are banned in the trans Tahoe relay swim. Maybe since I can't run worth a flip I should be allowed to wear wheelies on the run leg of a tri, to me it's the same thing.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:49:47 GMT

Oops. Sorry. I misquoted geochuck. It is aquageek who I believe is missing the point entirely. Thats OK I have been misquoted many times.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:44:19 GMT

Oops. Sorry. I misquoted geochuck. It is aquageek who I believe is missing the point entirely.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:41:17 GMT

Wow. Seems to be a a multitude of chips on shoulders around here. Thanks, Rob C for clearing up the USMS rule re wetsuits. My observation, however, is that at USMS events, those who wear wetsuits are not the strongest competition. Geo - I have to say, you miss the point entirely. There are a gazillion types of bikes out there, and, yes, they all have tires. But would you say, if one person is riding a heavy slow mountain bike, all the people on slick, tri-specific fast bikes are cheaters? Bottom line (to me)..... when the rules allow a wetsuit and it is your goal to finish as high as possible, then by all means wear it. A properly fitted wetsuit will make you faster (and even keep you warm). It makes you no less of a swimmer or no less of a person.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:17:43 GMT

This is contrary to the USMS mission. If you can’t swim… we would love to have you learn! So you can hang out with all the cool Masters Swimmers. Rob you are right, it was a pun. I once heard a lady say this as a warning to her children. She said "don't go near the water and you won't drown".

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

rtodd — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:10:54 GMT

aquageek, what gives? I swim 15,000+ yds a week without a wetsuit. It's not like I love wetsuits, but when I race it is all about doing my fastest time with what is allowed. If this tri coming up had a non-wetsuit division I would be in that one. It is a team tri and I don't have to worry about getting out of the suit in the transition, so to me a one mintue gain, or about 5 sec/100 is a no brainer.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Rob Copeland — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:49:16 GMT

To serious swimmers it does, provided not used for it's intended purpose - warmth.I guess I must not be a serious swimmer, since the only times I have raced in a wetsuit, I did it for speed not warmth. However by my estimation, in those races, a 30 second improvement (because of the wet suit) was worth a couple of grand in prize money. So I’ll take the money and live with being called a subpar doggy paddling novice. Personally, I would prefer to not use a wetsuit for speed OR warmth (provided the water temp is over about 47 degrees) , but if wearing wetsuits brings more people into the sport, then I’m all for having wetsuit divisions in races.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Former Member — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:10:12 GMT

USMS does not allow wetsuits in OW swimming (to be eligible for records or awards anyhow) for the same reason they do not allow pull buoys in pool competitions, they offer an unfair advantage. In my book, that certainly qualifies as a crutch. Try wearing fins or paddles through an entire Masters practice and see what your teammates think. The word cheater comes to mind.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 04:35:09 GMT

I'm sure all those hopped up juice junkies kicked out of the Tour de Francois all think they are serious bicyclers.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 03:54:23 GMT

It makes you no less of a swimmer.... To serious swimmers it does, provided not used for it's intended purpose - warmth. By god, if some dude can swim at the North (or was it South) Pole without a suit, then even a subpar doggy paddling novice swimmer can make it a few yards in an 77 degree lake without one.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 03:02:43 GMT

I do what makes me faster. I don't let the air out of my tires before a bike race. Tires are part of a bike, not an extra add-on to help those who can't ride. Be a (wo)man, take of your crutch and swim.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

Rob Copeland — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 03:00:40 GMT

USMS DOES allow wetsuits. It is only at national open water championships and national records that wet suits are excluded from scoring. 303.6.3—Wetsuits may be allowed at the discretion of the meet director. Wetsuits generally provide a competitive advantage. If awards are given to wetsuit competitors they shall be awarded separately from those for non-wetsuit competitors. Any published results or records must clearly indicate which swimmers wore wetsuits. If you can't swim don't go near the water and you will not drown. This is contrary to the USMS mission. If you can’t swim… we would love to have you learn! So you can hang out with all the cool Masters Swimmers.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

rtodd — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:55:04 GMT

You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. If you show up to a triathlon that allows them and you are not wearing one, don't expect to be first out of the water if someone with equal pool times is wearing one. It's a crutch for poor swimmers and sometimes necessary for fast ones to win. I sense a pool / triathlon rift forming. I do what makes me faster. I don't let the air out of my tires before a bike race.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

aquageek — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:32:54 GMT

I've always heard that wetsuit do very little for very good or very bad swimmers but tend to help those who are in the middle. Personally, I take pride in thumping the wetsuit wearing crowd at races. I try to wear my rattiest Speedo to emphasize it's not the suit but the person. I get very annoyed with the folks to wear a wetsuit if the water is even a half degree below 76. I was at a race a few years back in a lake that was 88 degrees and one fellow wore a wet suit to "practice for an ironman." He got DQ'ed of course, was a lousy swimmer and had to be fished out halfway through cause he was stewing himself alive.

RE: expected time drop with a wetsuit

knelson — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:44:55 GMT

If the water is dead calm, I may go with the fast skin. You don't object to that do you? or does it have to be a jammer? I did notice in the non-wetsuit divisions of the Tiburon Mile even body suits are specifically forbidden. I believe the rule says the suit must not go below the knee or above the hips. By the way, the average water temp in San Francisco bay is in the low 60s. I've never done that race, but I bet it would be fun. Lots of world class swimmers compete every year.