FINA Breastroke Question

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

jonblank — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 10:28:57 GMT

I don't think imposing the 15 meter rule in *** would help. It'd just make it hard on the breaststrokers. While they go farther with the kick, a good pullout alone could send you way past 15 meters. Any chance you could show me how to send me "way past 15 meters" with "a good pullout alone"? If I could learn that, it's look out Mr. Hansen!:lolup:

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:25:32 GMT

I don't like allowing breaststroke kick in butterfly, although I would hesitate to eliminate it for the older age groups, but I can't see any justification for removing it from backstroke which is not back crawl but freestyle with the added restriction that you have to stay on your back (except for the turn exception, which I think was one of the biggest rule blunders ever). It would be like banning dolphin kicks from free and back, what would the justification be?

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 15:16:36 GMT

Just for reference purposes, the actual FINA rule wording is: A single downward dolphin kick followed by a breaststroke kick is permitted while wholly submerged. fina.org/.../swimming.php Perhaps this is the kick FINA needs to initiate use of underwater video in judging. With the commercialization of webcam technology it shouldn't be expensive to do relative to the cost of timing pads. It might actually be good thing for underwater cameras to become "standard equipment" in pools, in terms of making video analysis more widely available.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:51:01 GMT

But, if folks are now getting one legal and some illegal number of dolphin kicks on ***, are we eventually just going to two strokes - free and some version of stroke with a fly kick? I have to agree with Geek that this is a danger. For the sake of faster times, the purity of each stroke is being compromised with SDK's. I think underwater cameras and a 3rd start judge viewing...if the swimmers know that there is an eye in the pool...they'll cut out the risk of a DQ themselves.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:34:19 GMT

Simple fix: Allow Dolphin kicks and limit it to 15Y like other strokes and be done with it. Of course, then any old hack will be doing ***.... Legally the current dolphin kick should be as/during you pull not before or after. I'm in favour of underwater judging and making examples out of stars who tweak rules and sneak in cheats via DQ's... If it's done the next day so be it...delay medal ceremonies too.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

FlyQueen — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:28:38 GMT

Many younger breaststrokers do the fly with the breaststroke kick in masters, because they are better at it. Why should be allow a swimmer to do the brst kick in the fly, then in the back, then in the brst.......he's swimming 3/4 of the race breaststroke. EW! :frustrated:

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Gail Roper — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:09:19 GMT

My daughter and I reviewed the dive and turn and we think on the 50 it was Cameron van der Burgh from South Africa who did the two dolphin kicks and then the pull and other kick, also Terrin from Italy did it but not as strong as Cameron. In the 100, we think we saw Kitajima, dolphin kick first and then do the pull down, I don't think this is legal either. Does anyone else think this too?

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Gail Roper — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:41:54 GMT

I think we should remove the breaststroke kick from both the fly and back stroke in masters swimming. It was supposed to be that "older" masters swimmers couldn't do the fly kick because they never learned it while they were young. My era was the last to do it, I know because I missed the world record by 2 tenths doing the brst kick.........and then they changed the rules. Many younger breaststrokers do the fly with the breaststroke kick in masters, because they are better at it. Why should be allow a swimmer to do the brst kick in the fly, then in the back, then in the brst.......he's swimming 3/4 of the race breaststroke.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:28:43 GMT

The more I think about it the less sense the new dolphin kick rule makes. If you are allowing a kick because the ban is unenforceable then why would one kick be any more enforceable than no kicks? Presuming enforceability was the issue the new rule is no solution at all.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Paul Smith — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:11:00 GMT

Once again we see breastrokers trying to "fit it" to "our" sport.....go back to the diving well or gymastics mat!! :banana:

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

aquaFeisty — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:07:33 GMT

Geek, I think that the rules for backstroke just state that you have to be on your back. For example, you could do elementary backstroke and that would be completely legal (though slow). So the dolphin kick was always fine by the original rules, so long as you are on your back... and follow the later-added rule of surfacing before the 15m point (though I think it would be legal if you surfaced and just kept on kicking dolphin at the surface of the water on your back. I quite honestly would prefer that the single dolphin kick was removed from breaststroke entirely. It irritates me that people are adding more kicks. The IM won't be all that interesting if it's nothing but dolphin, dolphin, dolphin, and maybe a few strokes of free at the end. Blech.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

The Fortress — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 10:06:09 GMT

I have to agree with Geek that this is a danger. For the sake of faster times, the purity of each stroke is being compromised with SDK's. I think underwater cameras and a 3rd start judge viewing...if the swimmers know that there is an eye in the pool...they'll cut out the risk of a DQ themselves. I saw it as well, and the pre-pulldown dolphin kicking was quite blatant. I don't think there will any self-regulating without an underwater camera. Given that they use devices to detect even the tiniest twitch on the starts, I'm not sure why they can't use underwaters cams to DQ breaststroke cheaters on their starts and turns. The cheating on the 50 *** semi-finals made the race a joke. It could be a slippery slope unless anti-cheating rules are actually enforced. Other rules are enforced. Why not this one?

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

FlyQueen — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:47:53 GMT

Fly kick is the best part of backstroke ... Wonder if they will ever go to an underwater review of the strokes, imagine all the the DQs ...

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

aquageek — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:45:38 GMT

It was really blatant from the underwater angle. It was so blatant that it led me to believe it must be legal. I always felt it was a bit odd they have allowed the fly kick in backstroke but have learned to live with it. But, if folks are now getting one legal and some illegal number of dolphin kicks on ***, are we eventually just going to two strokes - free and some version of stroke with a fly kick?

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

poolraat — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:36:11 GMT

I would need to look up the exact wording but, in a nutshell, the rules state that the one dolphin kick can occur during or after the arm pull down. If it happens before the pull down while still in streamline it is a disqualification. But as others have said it is very hard to see it from the end of the pool because of the splash and surface turbulance.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

aquaFeisty — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:02:11 GMT

The rules state one dolphin kick, something to the effect of: a single downward dolphin kick followed by a single breaststroke kick while wholly submerged. I think that many people get away with the dolphin kick as they enter because it is hard to see (from above) with the white water of the dive. It is possible that for some it is a legitimate side effect of the way they pike and dive in (perhaps I'm stretching the benefit of the doubt here, but still). However, 2 dolphins at the start? Come on... I don't think that's any kind of dive side effect. This is really irritating.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:59:25 GMT

I do that too, why not, judges are stupid they can't see the kicks amid the turbulence and bubbles. I get away with it all the time. You think some bonehead in Fina would allow underwater cameras to catch cheaters AJ So, I watched some of the Australia meet events tonight and I have a question concerning breastroke. I watched in slow-mo about 10 times and I swear the breastrokers are taking two dolphin kicks on the dive entry before the now-legal one big dolphin kick. Is this now legal also, the two small little dolphin kicks?

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:54:41 GMT

While technology is a good answer, it presents problems. Do you not accept a record if the camera shorted out just before the last turn? How about someone coming out of nowhere to break the record and you didn't think to have them there. What about qualifying meets? Do the cameras have to be there in order for the times to count? How about a qualifying meet for a qualifying meet? While it may seem like a simple solution, it is not simply implemented. (I am not even considering masters here BTW.) Leo I don't think a shorted-out camera need be treated any differently than a judge that sneezes, blinks or looks away at the wrong moment. Cameras would just be an additional assist for judges and would act as deterrent for swimmers. Similar issues could arise if a swimmer swam a world record swim at a rinky-dink meet with a newbie official. A cynical person could suggest that the judge-assisting cameras be mandatory if there is going to be any underwater video, so that at least we aren't broadcasting our inability to enforce the rules live on tv or the net.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:34:53 GMT

I might be the only one that noticed this but.... It seems to me like after the start it takes the judges quite some time to get up to the edge of the pool and actually start watching the swim. I know the bubbles and whatnot from the start make it hard to see these small kicks but maybe part of the problem is also that the judges aren't in a position to see them when they happen. Also, as to video cameras...when do you use them? In the NFL they are used to overturn calls that are made. Am I right in assuming people want a review of every single lane in every race in the finals? That seems overly burdensome to me. Just watch the start/turn? What if I cheat in the middle? I think that video could be useful insofar as it allows judges to make closer calls because they know it will be video reviewed. But to review every single swim seems like a waste to me. Just my two cents.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:26:37 GMT

While technology is a good answer, it presents problems. Do you not accept a record if the camera shorted out just before the last turn? How about someone coming out of nowhere to break the record and you didn't think to have them there. What about qualifying meets? Do the cameras have to be there in order for the times to count? How about a qualifying meet for a qualifying meet? While it may seem like a simple solution, it is not simply implemented. (I am not even considering masters here BTW.) Leo Maybe you only do it at the finals. If you cheated your way to the finals but still out swim the others on final day while on camera...you still won. However, qualiyfing meets could be held and the participants not know if there are cameras or not...so it would be like random drug testing. In any case if there is indisputably clear evidence of cheating on film...it's never too late to overturn. Especially in something like swimming where there is no "time remaining" to overcome a bad or missed call. That's my thinking on it.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Former Member — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:20:36 GMT

I don't think imposing the 15 meter rule in *** would help. It'd just make it hard on the breaststrokers. While they go farther with the kick, a good pullout alone could send you way past 15 meters. I agree that underwater cams would be good to have, and I've wondered why they haven't introduced them earlier, but as Leo pointed out there are a lot of kinks to work out before you can use it. Look at how long the NFL was around before the Instant Replay came around.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

The Fortress — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:58:59 GMT

Maybe???if the kick is on entry it could be a "legitimate" part of the start. 2 kicks is just cheating. The fact the judges can't/won't call it doesn't make it right. Paul,please stop sniping at *** or I'll have to go back to calling long axis the Axis of Evil":thhbbb: :thhbbb: :thhbbb: I think there should be no dolphin in breaststroke. I'd be OK with a rule change to allow one to swim the first 15 M each length underwater BREASTSTROKE. I agree! Nothing wrong with a 15 meter rule. Allen: There are some of us who are half 'n half types. ;) I see Lisogor beat Hansen in the 50 ***. If I recall correctly, he is one of the double dolphin cheaters. I will watch it later tonight.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Jeff Commings — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:41:32 GMT

I might be the only one that noticed this but.... It seems to me like after the start it takes the judges quite some time to get up to the edge of the pool and actually start watching the swim. I know the bubbles and whatnot from the start make it hard to see these small kicks but maybe part of the problem is also that the judges aren't in a position to see them when they happen. Yet they are right there on relay take-offs. Why can't they be right there for individual starts to be able to see better? When I coached kids, I was able to see a lot of things on the dive I probably wouldn't see if I were three feet away. If there is any rule change, that should be it. If they're not worried about being in the peripheral view of the relay swimmers, they shouldn't be concerned about interfering with individual swims. But as I said elsewhere, I saw this coming. Once you take away someone's ability to cheat, they'll find a new way.

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Karen Duggan — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:04:00 GMT

Paul Smith- Don't you have some healing to do or something?! This thread did not say "big guy sprinter stud FINA question"- beat it ;)

RE: FINA Breastroke Question

Allen Stark — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:27:29 GMT