Questions about US swimming

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:11:10 GMT

Thanks for the input, folks. I wrote to a meet director of an upcoming meet. She said I would only have an issue with proving my time if I failed to make the cut in the USS Meet, like Blackbeard's Peg said. So, I think I'm all set for the first USS meet, and then should be fine once I get those 'official' times.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:34:08 GMT

We've had rule changes in the past year. The rules are possibly different for each LSC based on their Policies and Procedures and also for each meet. Ours are written based on the 95% rule where swimmers CAN prove seed times and therefore the developing swimmers will need to establish seed times in SWIMS (USAS National Database times). There may be problems for the other 5%. For the early season meets, there is more flexibility; later in the season you have to have provable times. If you are associated with a USAS team, talk with your team's entries chair; otherwise you will want to talk to the meet director for that meet.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:46:47 GMT

RE: Questions about US swimming

Chris Stevenson — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:45:53 GMT

I see this thread has been inactive for a while, but it's been very useful to me. I would also like to swim some USS meets because I really like long course meters and there are very few LCM meets here in the Dixie zone. My question for y'all is this: If you need times from another USA Swimming meet to qualify for a USA Swimming meet, how do I enter my first ever USA Swimming meet? My times are decent, so I am unwilling to enter 'NT' and swim against a struggling 15-year-old. That's just not cool. I thought about swimming just time trials to get official times for the next meet. Would that work? Thanks for any advice y'all can give! Your times do not have to be from a USAS meet but don't just assume they will accept USMS times. Because there are slight differences between USMS and USA-S rules, you need to notify someone (meet referee? meet director? I forget) BEFORE you swim that you want your times to count for a USA-S meet. That way the S&T judges will verify that you swam a legal race according to USA-S rules. Unfortunately you cannot do it after the fact. I tried to enter the PV Senior Champs meet last year based on times done at USMS nationals the year before and they flat out refused to let me swim any events (even ones for which there are no rule differences). They informed my team of this fact one week before the meet, which I was tapering for. I was...somewhat upset with the decision. Luckily the VA LSC was more open minded and I swam there instead. Bottom line: many (most?) USA-S officials would probably be willing to accept USMS times but you can't count on it. My situation was also complicated by the fact that PV is not my LSC and it was their Senior Championship meet -- for some "run-of-the-mill" meet the officials (especially if they know you) might be more lenient.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Muppet — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:00:57 GMT

Craig, I've never seen any notation that my times had to be from USAS meets only, but then I've only entered two in my life. I know that I may need to prove that I have swum a particular time in the past, so what I have done is entered exact times from certain USMS meets I've swum in the 2 years previous to the particular meet I'm entering. For example, I'm swimming a USS meet this weekend and entered with times from my USMS Colonies Zone meet last April. So if I swim a crappy 200 tomorrow and they question my ability to actually make the cutoffs, I can point them to the website and say, "well, I went x:xx last year." :drown: I would think if you should be able to use USMS times without issue, especially if the results are posted online for the meet directors to verify. It's not like you're totally making things up out of thin air.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Muppet — Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:34:52 GMT

Well, some of our questions of Masters & USAS were answered this weekend, as I swam in my first USS/USAS meet ever. At the ripe (masters LCM) age of 27. It was the Potomac Valley Distance meet - 800 on Saturday, 1500 on Sunday. I will say I was somewhat nervous, but very excited nonetheless. I think the nervousness was that I didn't want too many of the puppies (and you guys call ME a puppy) smoking me, and thankfully, I think I had some respectable swims. 800 went well - I went out real fast (31.5), speed was hugely inconsistent, and the best part was being hunted down by the 14-year-old in the lane next door. I held him off... barely - me: 9:59.3, him 9:59.5. PB by 2sec from last year. I think I could have swum it smarter and done better. 1500, swam in a heat with 3 11y/o and 2 13y/o. I was the tallest in my heat by at least 15". The kid next to me was barely taller than my stomach. Swam that well; dropped 33seconds off my PB in that event, swim 3 years ago, 19:35.6.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:46:29 GMT

I'm getting a headache from all this. At least I won't have to worry about top ten consideration... hahaha And Dorothy, teen studs aren't ready for the Masters level Studs...send in the Ande's and the Jeff Comings to humble them I say...wait, I'm not ready for the Master's Studs either... :lmao:

RE: Questions about US swimming

The Fortress — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:11:56 GMT

Skip, I believe this sums up the desire for dual-sanctioning in my mind. I had contemplated swimming in the Pueblo meet mentioned in my previous post but other plans got in the way. It is important for me to have more local meets available, so that I can minimize travel to Arizona and California for meets. At the Pueblo meet I would not have had to meet qualification standards. I am a routine Top Ten swimmer in the 65-69 age group but haven't a hope in Hell of meeting qualifying standards for the top flight senior meets of USAS. Thus, I would be a winner by being able to attend such meets. Couldn't agree more. I don't have the time to travel around looking for meets. It'd be nice to have more opportunities to compete. In the summer, if you're not doing a postal distance swim or an open water swimmer, you are mostly sitting on the sidelines. Even in a metro area.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:48:15 GMT

Finally, this is about providing opportunities to swimmers. Dual sanctioning provides opportunities to compete to USMS members and USA Swimming members. Skip, I believe this sums up the desire for dual-sanctioning in my mind. I had contemplated swimming in the Pueblo meet mentioned in my previous post but other plans got in the way. It is important for me to have more local meets available, so that I can minimize travel to Arizona and California for meets. At the Pueblo meet I would not have had to meet qualification standards. I am a routine Top Ten swimmer in the 65-69 age group but haven't a hope in Hell of meeting qualifying standards for the top flight senior meets of USAS. Thus, I would be a winner by being able to attend such meets.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Rob Copeland — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 04:41:14 GMT

What would be gained by a Dual Sanction?Skip it is all about the USMS mission and objectives. To promote fitness and health in adults by offering and supporting Masters swimming programs… To offer adults the opportunity to participate in a lifelong fitness and/or competitive swimming program… While it is possible for USMS members to also join USA Swimming, and many of us do, it is not possible for all USA Swimmers to join USMS. Skip, the issue of different rules between USMS and USA-S has been addressed within USMS. According to current USMS rules, for dual sanctioned events, USA-S rules and administrative regulations apply. So there is no need to make special accommodations for “Masters Rules” within USA-S. USA Swimming only needs to make a one line rule change to allow dual sanctioning. And there, in my opinion, are benefits for dual sanctioning to both organizations. First USMS historically has been more active in organizing and conducting open water events, dual sanctioning allows for USA-S to take advantage of our experience both from the administrative side and the competitor’s side. Not allowing the kids to participate is a disservice to them and shuts down a revenue source for meet hosts. Second, there are a number of USMS swimmers in areas that do not conduct many meets. By allowing dual sanctioned events it provides an opportunity for these underserved members to participate. And yes they can join USA-S and provided there is a senior division (not just 15-17) they could compete against the senior age groupers, however a number of our members are uncomfortable competing with these kids. And how fair is it for a 70 year old to compete against a 19 year old? Third, dual sanctioning is not a requirement, it would be optional. I would doubt, in fact I would discourage, pool zone meets or higher from being dual sanctioned. Most zone meets have a tough enough time meeting session guidelines. However as far as “this would never ever happen any kind of USA Swimming meet” tell these folks to open their eyes, it has happened and it continues to happen today. People who want to make it work, make it work; people who don’t, won’t. Finally, this is about providing opportunities to swimmers. Dual sanctioning provides opportunities to compete to USMS members and USA Swimming members.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Frank Thompson — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 01:21:30 GMT

I have been reading this discussion and talking to USA Swimming Administration people and I have come up with a conclusion question about this topic. What would be gained by a Dual Sanction? It seems to me that right now its in the best interests of both organizations to have swimmers register and become members of the orgainization which they want to represent. That is defined in both organizations rule book and I can't see why either one would want to change that. I am all for swimmers joining both organizations and swimming in competitions that meet there schedules and goals. The way its done now if you swim in a USA Swimming meet and meet the critera for times in meets, you can swim in them and turn them in for Top Ten. Many swimmers do this and its seems to work out ok. If a USA swimmer wants to join USMS, they can if they meet the age requirement of 18. They can compete and swim and I believe they can turn in there times for USA swimmming toward Top Ten and Records. This is what Nick Brunnelli did last when in a USMS meet he set an American Record in the SCM 50 Free. It would seem to me that both organizations would have to make major rule changes and revisons in there rules to accomodate dual sanctioning. That observation is by reading Article 202 and 203 of the 2007 USA Rule Book. Right now I don't believe we have a lot of swimmers in both competiting and belonging as members in both organizations. I feel to be fair that a swimmer who wants to compete and swim in both organizations should belong to both organizations. Right now, it seems to me that there are more USMS masters swimmers that swim in USA meets as opposed to USA swimmers swimming in Masters meets. Dual sanctioning sounds like a great idea but when you look at differences in the meets, rules, and eligibility qualifing time standards its quite different for both organizations. I notice that the Coach and Club/Team in USA swimming has to take more responsibilty and control of the swimming member than what USMS implies in there rule book for there members. This responsibility is that the swimmer must enter with his Club/Team and the Club/Team has responsibility over the swimmer where in USMS its the swimmer that has responsibility over the swimmer. I was telling some people at USA Swimming how we enter meets and USMS Nationals and how we as inidividual swimmers can go online and register. I was told that this would never ever happen in any kind of USA Swimming Meet especially with a Zone Meet or higher. You have to enter everything by Team/Club/Coach and in certain electonic formats that USMS does not require. This is just one area and I sure there are countless others about the differences in both organizations. The bottom line is that right now you can compete for both organizations as members of those organizations and everything will work as long as you follow the rules and critera of both organizations.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:00:56 GMT

Not really correct. 1) USA Swimming sanctions can only be issued to USA Swimming group members (clubs) or the LSC. Therefore a USA-S sanction can not be issues to a USMS club. So your second question is correct, but not for the reason you mentioned. 2) If a USA-S club receives a USA-S sanctions for a meet and later add Masters events and applies for a USMS sanction; then the LMSC could issue a sanction. However USA Swimming should then revoke their sanction. I'm certainly in the dark on this obscure issue. COMSA has a dual-sanctioned meet in Pueblo, CO shortly. Here is the link to the meet information file: www.comsa.org/.../2007PuebloOpenLC.rtf Looks to me as if USMS swimmers enter and swim next to their USAS grandchildren and the results are separated and submitted to the two organizations after the swims are completed. I thought this was what USMS was working toward if memory serves from reading some of the committee minutes. So, Rob, I certainly can't reconcile your comments above with what I read for the Pueblo Open meet. Maybe NO ONE understands the association or lack thereof between USAS and USMS. It's certain that I don't.....

RE: Questions about US swimming

Rob Copeland — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:52:38 GMT

Mel, I’m only reporting the rules. Apparently the LSC sanction chair doesn’t know or doesn’t follow these rules. USA Swimming rule 202.3.1 is very clear on this. Mel, this is what USMS is working towards. USA Swimming has not yet been able to get past a few issues on their side.

RE: Questions about US swimming

The Fortress — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:34:32 GMT

I'm in Gainesville and swim with OCCS, which is assigned to Leesburg for this meet. I doubt I'll do it, though. Not enough time to register. I'll stick with the 2 (why only 2?) LC USMS meets in the area this year. Next year, in prep for Nationals I might do some USS. Alison I hope Leesburg is better than Lee District! I was at Lee District today for the age group meet. Awful pool. No lighting. It looked like the swimmers were swimming in the dark. I don't know what kids with dark goggles did. If I'm going to all the trouble to swim in a meet, I'm not all that fond of crappy pools. I'm just going to send in my USA-S and swim unattached, if I get a chance, next fall.

RE: Questions about US swimming

Rob Copeland — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 05:54:35 GMT

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:42:48 GMT

what is this US swimming you speak off...do they have an old fat guy division?

RE: Questions about US swimming

swimmieAvsFan — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:35:20 GMT

When is the senior meet II? Not sure I'll do it this summer. Right now the seniors swim in the am and 11-12 year olds swim in the afternoon, so that wouldn't work for me. But when Mini-Fort ages up to 13 in the fall, I think we would be swimming in the same session. But I am feeling very LC meet deprived ... I just saw the Senior II meet in June 24 in the afternoon, which would be perfect. But the entry deadline is June 13. I don't think I can get registered and get the paperwork done in time. Boo. I'll have to check the qualifying time for the 50 free at Senior Champs. Maybe I can make that cut. (Just checked, made the 50 free by .1. Uh, the 100 fly LC qualifying time is a 1:11. Not in the rest of this lifetime ...) actually, senior II is dual sanctioned, so you don't even need to worry about getting USA-S registered. i'm just not sure how you go about entering as a USMS athlete... probably talk to roddin :)

RE: Questions about US swimming

Muppet — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:12:03 GMT

Clarification – a dual sanctioned meet is a meet where BOTH USA Swimming and USMS have issued a sanction to the event host. Currently USA Swimming does NOT allow for dual sanctioned events. However, USMS does allow for dual sanctioned events with USA Swimming. As I am interpreting this, if a USAS team hosts a meet under USAS rules, officials, etc., USMS can issue a dual sanction. However, if a USMS team hosts a meet under USMS rules, USAS want's no part in it. Is that correct?

RE: Questions about US swimming

Former Member — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:09:49 GMT

Leslie, You and I are thinking along the same lines. I just sent in my form to Georgia LSC (after emailing him and confiming that a 35 yr old can swim USS meets). I wanted to swim some more LC meets just for fun. It's much less expensive for me to swim some USS open meets that are right in my area as opposed to going to USMS Nationals (I think I estimated this LC one in the Woodlands would cost me around $2500 - hubby and I are doing a vay-cay sans swimming instead). You would do great against the kids! I'm positive of it! Just look up the results from the same meets for the previous years. I'm pretty excited about this one meet in July in Atlanta. Field speed looks right up my alley! One of the guys I swim with Chris Green competes against the kids in USS meets. He's 43 and does quite well. K Pipes was also quoted as saying she enjoys the additional racing opportunity in open USS meets. I wish they wouldn't print my age. . . but oh well. :doh:

RE: Questions about US swimming

swimmieAvsFan — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 11:06:47 GMT

The Dolan meet, probably the fastest meet in our area all year, was not dual sanctioned?!?! I recall seeing some masters swimmers there. if it was, the PV Masters sanction number was nowhere to be found on the meet announcement. there were definitely masters swimmers there, but if you look at who they were, they're (almost) all registered with York...

RE: Questions about US swimming

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:07:15 GMT

It will be hard to find 50's. At most USA meets, the only 50's offered in Open is the 50 free. I know this is usually the case. But I sat at the MD and VA LC State Champs enviously perusing 50 results for seniors. I think I can do a 100 as well. ;) (S)he-Man: It makes sense to find LC or SC meets in your area instead of traveling around. That's what I'm thinking too. I have a teammate, Wally Dicks (44), that very frequently swims in USS meets. Our LMSC registrar, Jeff Roddin, does as well. The kids seem to get a kick out of watching them. I agree, though, do they have to print my age?!

RE: Questions about US swimming

The Fortress — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:06:00 GMT

Leslie, if you do sign up, let me know when you wil be swimming. I'm looking into swimming a few LC meets with the kids this year as well (looking at Age Group & Senior Meet II) Alison When is the senior meet II? Not sure I'll do it this summer. Right now the seniors swim in the am and 11-12 year olds swim in the afternoon, so that wouldn't work for me. But when Mini-Fort ages up to 13 in the fall, I think we would be swimming in the same session. But I am feeling very LC meet deprived ... I just saw the Senior II meet in June 24 in the afternoon, which would be perfect. But the entry deadline is June 13. I don't think I can get registered and get the paperwork done in time. Boo. I'll have to check the qualifying time for the 50 free at Senior Champs. Maybe I can make that cut. (Just checked, made the 50 free by .1. Uh, the 100 fly LC qualifying time is a 1:11. Not in the rest of this lifetime ...)

RE: Questions about US swimming

swimshark — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 08:01:37 GMT

Leslie, if you do sign up, let me know when you wil be swimming. I'm looking into swimming a few LC meets with the kids this year as well (looking at Age Group & Senior Meet II) Alison

RE: Questions about US swimming

Rob Copeland — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 07:15:35 GMT

Jeff just told me that "dual sanctioned" just means that you can submit your USA-S times from that meet to USMS for top ten consideration. You still have to be registered with USA-S swimming to compete in the meet. So no 100 fly for me. Send your times to Jeff, the guy in charge of Top Ten for PV, if you want to have them considered. Good luck!Clarification – a dual sanctioned meet is a meet where BOTH USA Swimming and USMS have issued a sanction to the event host. Currently USA Swimming does NOT allow for dual sanctioned events. However, USMS does allow for dual sanctioned events with USA Swimming. The USMS recognition of times achieved at USA Swimming sanctioned events has nothing to do with dual sanctioning. Times achieved by USMS members at a USA Swimming sanctioned event may be submitted for Top 10 consideration. For this to happen the USMS member must also be an athlete member of USA Swimming. You enter and compete under your USA Swimming membership and after the fact you submit your times to your LMSC Top 10 chair.

RE: Questions about US swimming

dorothyrde — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 07:12:22 GMT

I think it's Senior Champs, right? I don't think I qualify! No 50s, can't make the 100 cutoffs. Good luck! If a meet is dual-sanctioned, does that mean you don't need to register for USA swimming? Yes, it's safe to say that hell will freeze over before I do a distance meet. You'd sooner see me in an aquathlon. I did one last year with the fam. Ha, ha. It will be hard to find 50's. At most USA meets, the only 50's offered in Open is the 50 free.